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57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
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wulfram Offline
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Exclamation 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
For the sake of saving your time and sparing many would-be future PM’s, I have compilated the key posts of my results thread into this one large post. I am organizing this post chronologically as I had originally developed my results – so if you are new to reading my little saga here; take the time to read the whole thing or just skip to the end. I have since made changes in my electrolyte mixture, generator design, and driving habits to increase results. With that noted, here it goes:

Post 1: April 2008

I performed my first road test since I gutted my HHO gen and rebuilt it.
Here's the specs:
2 SS plates
Elect. Mix = 1 tablespn b.soda, 1 shot glass distilled white vinegar,
1/3 cup %70 isop.alcohol, 2 capfulls hydrogen peroxide.
Copper tubing for both lines (to PCV and Air intake BEFORE MAF).
Tin foil around O2 sensor (only 1 sensor)

Vehicle: 95 ford probe, 2.0L, 5 speed, 4 cyl. 180,000+ miles.

Result on yesterday's road test: 57 MPG! (coming from an original 28 before the gen, and up to 45 before the stainless steel plate mod, copper tubing, and new elect.mixture).

Just got my EFIE in the mail yesterday, will be installing it tomorrow and then will perform another road test to see if it increased.

May post pics soon.

that is all.

-----------------------
Post 2: NEW UPDATE MAY 5th 2008

I understand the following may arouse intense disbelief, and am already prepared to be accused a liar (well, prepared in that - I don't really care ). For those who actually follow what I test with an open mind, here's for you.

Yesterday I embarked on a 680 mile interstate trip. I scrutinized my movements and adjustments as much as possible during the trip and performed 3 mpg tests. The terrain was mostly flat and straight with few curves.
Here are the mpg tests and adjustments as occurred:

1st test: Topped off tank, drove 61 miles. Topped of tank and took .978 gal to top off again. = 62.37 mpg
Adjustment made after: Opened bubbler valve 2 turns more to allow more outside air return to jar per vaccuum taken out.

2nd test: Topped tank, drove 78 miles. Took 1.07 gal to top off = 72.89 mpg .
Notes: Water level decreased to little above half full - thus original volume of baking soda reacts to less water present creating more gas.
Adjustment made after: Increased bubbler valve 1 more turn.

3rd test: Topped tank, drove 103 miles. Gas needle had barely budged and I became suspicous at 103 miles that gauge may had reacted badly to all these experiments. Pulled over exit at 103 miles and took 1.15 gal to top off tank. = 89.56 mpg!
Notes: Water level dropped a little below half full and more gas was being produced in greater volume - again I suspect because the same amount of baking soda was present in a lesser amount of water with the same amount of electricity available. If there are better theories out there, I would be very interested in to know how to continue duplicating these results.
Adjustment made after: opened bubbler valve more to compensate for the quickly depleting water supply.

Drove next 300 miles on under a quarter tank (I have a 15.5 gal tank)and stopped counting because I really needed to get to my destination on time.

Other observations: Drove no more than 70 mph and no less than 60 mph for whole trip (except for starts and stops at exits). After each adjustment and length of trip, less and less did I need to touch accelerator pedal to achieve same speeds. Eventually, I had to adjust to tapping the pedal on and off to prevent speeding.
Also, water ran out completely at around 80 miles left to go in the trip and I noticed because much more depression on accel pedal was required to achieve speed. (Soon stopped along road to pop the hood and confirm that this was correct and I was out of water)
Gas needle started to decline at normal rate thereafter.

Mods to be made: A quick-fill plug on the lid to remove and fill with pre-mixed electrolyte kept in trunk of car.
Habits to be made: Not filling jar all the way up. Not screaming at top of my lungs like an idiot at gas stations when learning about higher mpg (when I hit my 89 mpg, I lost it in laughter and whoops - got alot of concerned looks).
-------------------------------------------
NOTES for the above:
1.I’ve stopped using baking soda completely. It rusts 304 l stainless like it were pure iron and the water needed changed after about every day.
2.No longer using the 2-plate design. I met up with a local research group who gave me a few free designs to try out and even provided me with a newer design generator in exchange for my submission of my results and vehicle for testing.
3.The tin foil wrap still remains on my o2 sensor and I’ve never removed it. Although there is no proof it does anything, I’m not going to tamper with success.


------------------------------------------
Post 3: May 24, 2008

Quick update:
due to recommendation from people here and also from a local research group I have been studying with, I have officially switched my electrolyte to Sodium Hydroxide.
I can't believe I've waited this long to do it! It's an electrolyte wonder.
Only takes less than 1/2 teaspoon and the water stays crystal clear! Been running it for 3 days now and no residue at all! The plates are clean as ever with no corrosion and the HHO output is incredible. It's doing with 1/2 teaspoon what would take 2 tablespoons of baking soda alone to do, and the water is remaining relatively cool after hours of use.
No more baking soda for me Will add rubbing alcohol in the winter though.
------------------------------------------------

Post 4: May 27, 2008

WOW, too many questions over one night to quote them all.
Bear with me everyone, I'll do my best to answer this in one shot without taking up alot of paragraphs.

My 1 inch spacing was used back when I was bathing them in a heavy electrolyte mixture of baking soda, vinegar, hydrogen peroxide and alcohol. That spacing with over a tablespoon of bakind soda -and everything else - was perfect for not allowing the plates to become too hot while at the same time producing alot of HHO. Problem became that all that baking soda quickly obliverated my plates. I changed the plates every week until I finally just switched to sodium hydroxide.

NOW: I use the exact same gen setup with two plates spaced 1/2 inch apart and using 1/2 teaspoon of Sodium Hydroxide. I am getting about the same HHO production as with the old setup and the tremendous soup of baking soda and everything else - WITHOUT effecting the plates at all. It is about 5 days (478 miles) into it now and the water is still crystal clear. I am producing probably 1.75 litres/min HHO.

Am I worried about sodium hydroxide hurting my engine? No.
jaksav7 posted a rather interesting experiment with aluminum he did recently (on another thread) that furthur eases any concerns I may have had. I am not using alot of Sodium Hydroxide in the water, and for the most obvious fact - I am not actually running Sodium Hydroxide itself (in its concentrated form) into the engine. I am not completely sure of what happens when you electrocute SOH in water; but I am not convinced its enough to deter me.

Am I using a bubbler? No.
My car has 191k miles on it. I have two other ford probes in better shape -with less mileage- standing by. This current car is my ultimate test vehicle. I'm trying everything with it. After running this one gen. for a few months on it (and recording my results), then I am going to add another gen.. then another.. and keep going until either the MPG stops improving, reverses, or my car falls apart (in which case, a local research group is dontating $100 dollars to my contribution to researching this science). Yes, I'm either that persistent or that stupid. I won't be offended for you to draw the later conclusion. So I am not installing a bubbler now. I don't want anything standing in the way of "bare minumum" progress.
I even have approaching plans of running my car off home-made ethanol (which is perfectly legal to make if you obtain a free permit from the A&TC) and HHO alone... but that will be a few months off yet.

Fun new experimental note:
Last night I was tinkering with the lid on my generator and accidentally shorted it out while the switch was turned on. It quickly melted a small hole in the lid right by the neg. terminal and set a steady stream of gas and flame up through the hole. It was so well co-ordinated that I stood back by the switch and left it go to see what would happen. The plates in the water (while shorting themselves) electrocuted the water producing LOTS of HHO and sending the gas up through the hole and making a large flame out the top. The flame kept growing larger and larger until my slow-release 30 amp fuse finally blew. So for the total duration of about 9 seconds, It went through 19 oz. of water and turned it all into gas and that gas fed an enormous flame which pretty much melted 1/4 of the metal lid to my generator. It was awesome. (I had another generator together in 20 minutes to take its place).

cheers.
-----------------------------------------------------
Post 5: June 3rd 2008

In order of last three posts' questions asked:

1. I only use NaOH and rubbing alcohol now. Nothing else. My temperature stays relatively cool, but I have mine positioned far enough from the engine (per my photos) and I don't use that much NaOH. (a road test last week (averaging 75-80 mph) revealed 82 mpg. So I'm still up there)

2. I rebuilt my gen since the long road trip with the 89mpg results. I met up with a local research team that -to my delight- focus their efforts on hydrogen technology. I kinda stole my new gen design from them. It works a bit better than my old gen as it doesn't get quite as warm and the plates are a little closer together (not much though). They also recommended I use NaOH.

3. Draino has sodium hydroxide in it, but it also has other stuff you don't want in there with your water. Lowe's carries a brand of crystal drain opener by the name of Roebic, and it is 100% NaOH. I have been told by people on here and elsewhere that because your gen only requires a very small amount of NaOH, there is little to no potential risk to the engine (unless you happen to get water sucked in through your vacuum line). I don't use a bubbler, but I believe a bubbler would remove the small potential risk involved. NaOH is bad for aluminum parts.
-----------------------------------------------------
Post 6: update June 23 2008

UPDATE:
Road test with wife's 93 v6 auto-trans Ford Probe: ***my F.Probe is a 4 cyl, hers is a v6***
-NO o2 sensor mod.
-62 mile road test (Mountain and Interstate)
-average speed between 50-80 mph
-16 oz. generator given to me by a lovely local research group (I'm a test subject now )
-one line going into the PCV valve, NO air intake line.

RESULTS:
- WAS getting average 20.5 MPG city/highway combined
- NOW getting average 49 MPG city/mountain/highway

Next tests for this vehicle:
-Highway miles only.
-Backroads only.
-With Air intake also installed to.
-With O2 tin wrap with PCV line alone.
-With O2 tin wrap with Air intake line also.
-Without O2 wrap with PCV and Air Intake line.

** note ** whenever I mention mountain miles - that means actually going up and down a mountain on a two way road.. not a highway going up and down a mountain with a gradual slope.

----------------------------------------------------------

Replies to good questions:

1.**Bubbler seems to be a very ambiguous term right now in the HHO gen setup. It can either mean a separate aparatus in which the gas is bubbled through water to ultimately prevent water vapor from entering the engine (which is what you are talking about) or it can mean a small adjustable cap on the generator that is turned to control the vacuum flow of the HHO and the return of outside air into the container. So far, no water has been sucked into my engine.

2.** (note made by Mike): Just a point of definition: a bubbler is a device that holds water, and is designed so the HHO must pass through the water as bubbles before having an open passage into the engine. The purpose of the bubbler is provide a barrier to any flash back that might occur if the hho gets ignited. Any such flashback would be effectively stopped at the water barrier. If some folks call something else a bubbler, they are just mistaken.

3.The copper line goes from the gen to the pcv and air intake and is to heat the HHO gas as it travels through the lines. When gas heats, it expands and this will also help in colder temperatures -as the vehicle warms up- to keep the gas at a moderately warm temperature. Cold gases compress and warm gases expand.
----------------------------------------------------------------

My current setup:

As stated in one of the posts above, I have since the first two posts replaced my home-made generator with one –now- that was donated to me by a local research group. Since switching from baking soda to NaOH, my mileage has slightly dropped to an average 75 mpg. I am currently working with this research group to use their current generator design and my know-how to bring it back up. NaOH causes the generator to run much cooler than baking soda and saves more money in the long run by the lack of maintenance that the baking soda caused to be required. NaOH is completely harmless to the electrodes of the current generator that I use.

I am posting the same photos here of my under-the-hood setup which has not changed in any way.


------------------------------
NEW!
Here's a video of my setup on my car and my wife's car. I apologize for the first 40 seconds of the video as it is without sound. The sound comes in after 40.
My Setup on Youtube Video
------------------------------------------

Updates: July 8

Installed a 16 oz. Generator on my mother's 1995 Saturn, 4 cyl, manual trans.
Installed to the PCV location only. No o2 sensor adjustment "yet."

Road test on total mountain miles: 48.7 mpg (probably more on interstate).

Installing a second generator to air intake line soon.

-----------------------------------------------

Update on my Father's 2000 Ford Explorer, 6 cyl, auto trans:
Installed 32 oz. generator to PCV.
Results: not so hot. 15 mpg. Has noticeable more HP though.

Adjustments to be made: going to install the EFIE I bought from Mike to the o2 sensor at the CC. Have reason to believe that for once, the o2 sensors will be an issue here.

----------------------------------

Notes:

As Craig pointed out here, yes - there is more HHO production with the vacuum adjustment valve opened more. I found that out during my long road trip back in May.
Two things occur:
1. More oxygen is entered into the mix and raises the octane of the gasoline.
2. The turbulance caused by the outside air bursting through the water causes more water to pass by the electrodes in the gen. This exposes more water/sec to the electrodes and thus increases HHO production.

...............................
Another New Video.
Here is the latest gen on my car. Yet even more HHO/min output at less amps and with less volume electrolyte. The electrolyte mix in this video is ONLY dist. water and 1/4 tspn NaOH.

Video.

....................................
UPDATE OCT 6, 2008.

Back from the trip (10 hours down, 27 hours dottle, 10 hours back ).

On the way down I stopped once toward the end of the trip.
With two generators (as seen on my last videos.. one air intank, one PCV), an average ambient air temp - 150F, an average amp draw on PCV gen - 6 amps (at operating temp), the voltmeter at about 13V the whole time (with the gens, my laptop plugged into an AC converter..running into my stereo system and with headlights on), and my cruise control at 70 MPH nearly the entire time ... I got 64 MPG.

9.37 gallons on almost 600 miles.


On the way back I did two 100 mile top off's and one after a 200 mile stretch.
No cruise control on the first two top off's:

1. 76 MPG (100 mi)
2. 72 MPG (100 mi)
3. 59 MPG (200 mi)

Additional info:
-On the trip down, I didn't stop any to adjust the vacuum valve. When checked at the end of the trip, the PCV water level was down to the bottom two plates. The Air intake was still mostly full.
-Cruise control is great on my back, hard on the gas. I go gently uphills and light on the gas (or neutral) downhill and keep around the same speed. Cruise control tramps the gas pedal up hills and pulls back downhill (as it cannot shift neutral nor does it allow the speed to accel a little going downhill).


-------------------------------------
New update 10-24-08

NEW UPDATE:

I have learned something important these past two weeks with the dropping outdoor temperatures. I am also glad that I installed the ambient temperature gauge.

Last week, average outdoor temps (while driving) stood around 60 F, and the ambient engine temp wouldn't peak past 145 F. My average MPG (hwy and mountain) was 63 MPG.

This week, outdoor temp has finally been dipping down to freezing and below (I live near the top of a mountain and it dipped to 24 F last Sunday night). While driving, the ambient temp hasn't peaked past 135-ish F, and my mileage on a hwy trip (on wednesday from 5:30 am to 7:10 am) was 61 MPG and averaging 54 MPG overall on a half tank of gas (from wednesday afternoon until this evening when I filled back up).
My idle RPM's have gone up to 1500 when coasting or sitting still. They do drop after driving for about 25 minutes (car warms up I guess).

So I do believe that the colder weather is having a negative effect on my mileage. The rising RMP's was normal last year when it was cold; but I didn't have HHO installed then. Since it's doing it again this year, I assume my O2 sensor still is working as I can't think of anything else that would be reving up my RMP's when it's cold.
Also, since the ambient air temp is dropping (and it takes it longer to reach the peak) ... that means cooler HHO gas.


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(This post was last modified: 10-24-2008 03:54 PM by wulfram.)
06-24-2008 01:59 PM
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jcmal Offline
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Post: #2
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread
Impressive results. Any images of your HHO generator? or a linky to the designs? I have fab'd a smack and have about 20hrs on-time on the bench to get the NaOH just right for gas production and temp, a fine balance. My issue is the thing is huge ...looking for something small.

Can you share images / or link?

thanks in advance,
-j
06-24-2008 02:09 PM
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ghahai ghato Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread
Wow... important thread now, about time.... good... good....
06-25-2008 09:08 PM
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HHOe Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread
Nice job. Just a question. I see your copper lines are running in front of your exhaust manifold. do you think the manifold is heating up the gas in your line to give you better mileage?

2001 Chevy S-10 2.2 5 speed
22-23 before
27-33 after
06-26-2008 08:41 PM
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sax88player Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread
What is a bubbler? I seeing that come up a lot, and I'm confused...

Cory
07-01-2008 12:31 AM
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skiers4ever Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread
sax88player Wrote:What is a bubbler? I seeing that come up a lot, and I'm confused...

Cory

Hi Cory, A bubbler just "scrapes' the gas coming out of the Gen to help remove any harmful stuff before it gets into the engine. Basically the gas coming out of the Gen is tubed into water (or, in my case, the reservoir holding the mix) then into wherever you have it going into the engine. I've seen some people not have one, most have one, and some have two just to be on the safe side. John

2007 Honda Ridgeline 3.5L 4WD
Hydro Super 2 installed on 5/21/08
Colorado - 10,000 Feet!
07-01-2008 12:35 PM
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wulfram Offline
Hauptmann Hydro
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
I have just posted a video link above (added to my compilation post at the top of this thread) to a youtube video of my HHO setup on my car and my wife's car.
07-07-2008 06:10 PM
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RDKamikaze Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
That's great to hear that you're getting crazy good results! I've noticed a gain on my '06 Solara to about 50mpg (4cyl) in the city, but I'm hoping to reach 70mpg with my new design!

What mods have you made to the car involving fuel management and adjustment? Is the foil-wrapped o2 sensor the ONLY thing you have done along these lines? If so, that's impressive! Please let me, and all us other curios members, know thanks!

EDIT: After reading your whole thread again, I'm now confused on what your electrolyte is. There is NO water, just NaOH and rubbing alcohol? What is the mixture (% of each) that you are using? I live in hot AZ where I'm refilling my generator almost every 4 days or so and am interested in running a cooler generator!

My Car:
2006 Toyota Solara 2.4L 4cyl.
-Aftermarket (JPP) header
-DNX exhaust
-Injen Short-Ram Intake (SRI)

Add yourself to the HHO member map!!
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2008 12:16 AM by RDKamikaze.)
07-08-2008 12:05 AM
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CraigBMM Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP
RDKamikaze Wrote:That's great to hear that you're getting crazy good results! I've noticed a gain on my '06 Solara to about 50mpg (4cyl) in the city, but I'm hoping to reach 70mpg with my new design!

What mods have you made to the car involving fuel management and adjustment? Is the foil-wrapped o2 sensor the ONLY thing you have done along these lines? If so, that's impressive! Please let me, and all us other curios members, know thanks!

EDIT: After reading your whole thread again, I'm now confused on what your electrolyte is. There is NO water, just NaOH and rubbing alcohol? What is the mixture (% of each) that you are using? I live in hot AZ where I'm refilling my generator almost every 4 days or so and am interested in running a cooler generator!

no i was confused on this too .. i talked to him and he is using distilled water as the base , with 1/2 teaspoon NaOH and 1/3 cup (i think thats what he said) 70% isopropl rubbing alcohol. this was with a larger quart mason jar tho .. he now is running a second smaller 16 oz jar too. so might be reduced for that one.

RDKamikaze what is your setup? usin a map and o2 controller?
(This post was last modified: 07-08-2008 12:37 AM by CraigBMM.)
07-08-2008 12:31 AM
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RDKamikaze Offline
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RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Thanks, that will most likely help with my ABS setup I'm working on right now. It's about 10" high with a 6" wrapped 16ga anode. I'm going to be making that tomorrow when I pick up the metal, I'm excited! Making an HHO generator can be discouraging though at first, because 1. NOBODY else supports you (except this forum) and 2. It's not cheap if you're using ABS! WWHHHYYYY?!?!?!

But it's all worth it after your first tank, so it's all good. Big Grin Wulfram, please let us know the mixtures you are using, thanks!

My Car:
2006 Toyota Solara 2.4L 4cyl.
-Aftermarket (JPP) header
-DNX exhaust
-Injen Short-Ram Intake (SRI)

Add yourself to the HHO member map!!
07-08-2008 12:34 AM
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