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57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
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GreenEarthHelpPlace Offline
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Post: #21
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Gary Wrote:How about the short life of the wires and all the failed units? That's enough for me. My partner had one; never again.
Truth is, that's all I know about 'em, but that put me off of any wire considerations but one: no one ever answered my query about using several hundred feet of wire instead of a couple feet.

I will be the first to say that you can not judge anything by one experience. A failure has a reason...sometimes it is human error before you ever get started.

I put together a $1000.00 system for a man. It was a 10 plate, robust system that you could drive over with your truck! It failed the first time he used it...it was my error during the manufacturing process. I spent a great deal of time designing and building the system only to have it do exactly what it was going to do! FAIL!

I use to laugh at the Water4Gas electrolyzer. I am a plate man from the beginning. I NEVER thought that the Water4Gas design was anymore than a scam. Then I started building them.

Water4Gas has three major flaws: plastic lids, plastic towers and baking soda for an electrolyte.

Use lye and your wire degredation problem is put off for a long time, if not forever...who knows? The positive electrode oxidizes because of the salts in the baking soda mix. Lye doesn't seem to present that problem...just ask Wulfram about that!
The plastic lid can, of course, be overcome by the use of the metal lid that is included the jar and isolating the electrodes, but it does not seem to seal well, either, like the plastic lid.
That plastic tower is the Achilles heel of the system and I have seen no substitute in large scale production.

HOWEVER, pound for pound and buck for buck, it is not only a very effective system for producing and delivering HHO to the engine, but it does it inexpensively.

Bill Lange is no genius, but he built, arguably, the best, cheap little system on the market! It is a great starter for anyone.

I am humbled EVERYDAY!
07-09-2008 05:00 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #22
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
No, I said ALL the failed units. Read the forums on different HHO sites and you'll find many, although I agree with you on some of the peripheral causes.
Lastly, in the case of V-8's, more output is needed than you're going to need for your 4-banger; I've not seen any great output from these things, and testing one well-(properly?)made one, we found it to be very low, which is why it didn't work on an eight.
I'm a plate or tube guy, providing that you have a.) surface area to make product b.) close enough spacing for transfer without a bucketload of lye c.) proper wiring
Admittedly, Smack's aren't the most efficient (even he says so), they produce well.
Joe tubes are surrounded by controversy, so I don't know.
Sealed series units appear to work the very best, low amps, high output.
I don't know what else to tell ya. I read a lot, believe some.
07-09-2008 05:31 AM
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GreenEarthHelpPlace Offline
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Post: #23
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Gary Wrote:No, I said ALL the failed units. Read the forums on different HHO sites and you'll find many, although I agree with you on some of the peripheral causes.
Lastly, in the case of V-8's, more output is needed than you're going to need for your 4-banger; I've not seen any great output from these things, and testing one well-(properly?)made one, we found it to be very low, which is why it didn't work on an eight.
I'm a plate or tube guy, providing that you have a.) surface area to make product b.) close enough spacing for transfer without a bucketload of lye c.) proper wiring
Admittedly, Smack's aren't the most efficient (even he says so), they produce well.
Joe tubes are surrounded by controversy, so I don't know.
Sealed series units appear to work the very best, low amps, high output.
I don't know what else to tell ya. I read a lot, believe some.


The only tests that I performed on the wire units was with an imperfect tester.
I am now convinced my results were askew, but they seem to produce 25 ml/min to 50 ml/min. This was with 304...I have not tested them with 316L yet...I need a better tester.

I have no clue waht a sealed series is...I am curious...

I just believe in being honest and accurate about the whole thing, with all the variables known, but educated guesses thrown in once in a while to get the juices flowing.

I do not think anyone made any advancements by receiving disinformation...I could be wrong though!
07-09-2008 06:03 AM
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cantburn Offline
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Post: #24
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Here is what my final installation looks like, I will post mileage numbers for this 1995 Chevy Tahoe 4X4 on Saturday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nureoF8fcXc

"Life is but a tire swing"
07-10-2008 01:19 PM
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laoban Offline
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Post: #25
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
RDKamikaze,
What modification and setup that you have made on your 06 Solara? Please post your current setting. Did you modify MAF, IAT, ECT? How many ohm you have apply to tweak MAF sensor? Show me the design plan if you have one. Getting 50MPG in the city is pretty much encouraging! There are very very few Toyota owners actually post their results / setup configuration in this forum.

I have practically finished building my VSPB HHO generator using 3" ABS pipe with 19 316 grade SS plates for my Camry 2002 4 cyclinder but have not really put into HHO output test mode yet. I am using 3" ABS pipe is because I don't have room for 4" ABS pipe. Initially what I have planned to use. Furthermore, ABS is highly chemically resistant to KOH or NaoH electrolyte.

RDKamikaze Wrote:That's great to hear that you're getting crazy good results! I've noticed a gain on my '06 Solara to about 50mpg (4cyl) in the city, but I'm hoping to reach 70mpg with my new design!

What mods have you made to the car involving fuel management and adjustment? Is the foil-wrapped o2 sensor the ONLY thing you have done along these lines? If so, that's impressive! Please let me, and all us other curios members, know thanks!

EDIT: After reading your whole thread again, I'm now confused on what your electrolyte is. There is NO water, just NaOH and rubbing alcohol? What is the mixture (% of each) that you are using? I live in hot AZ where I'm refilling my generator almost every 4 days or so and am interested in running a cooler generator!
07-10-2008 02:23 PM
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mattsauto Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
wulfram Wrote:For the sake of saving your time and sparing many would-be future PM’s, I have compilated the key posts of my results thread into this one large post. I am organizing this post chronologically as I had originally developed my results – so if you are new to reading my little saga here; take the time to read the whole thing or just skip to the end. I have since made changes in my electrolyte mixture, generator design, and driving habits to increase results. With that noted, here it goes:

Post 1: April 2008

I performed my first road test since I gutted my HHO gen and rebuilt it.
Here's the specs:
2 SS plates
Elect. Mix = 1 tablespn b.soda, 1 shot glass distilled white vinegar,
1/3 cup %70 isop.alcohol, 2 capfulls hydrogen peroxide.
Copper tubing for both lines (to PCV and Air intake BEFORE MAF).
Tin foil around O2 sensor (only 1 sensor)

Vehicle: 95 ford probe, 2.0L, 5 speed, 4 cyl. 180,000+ miles.

Result on yesterday's road test: 57 MPG! (coming from an original 28 before the gen, and up to 45 before the stainless steel plate mod, copper tubing, and new elect.mixture).

Just got my EFIE in the mail yesterday, will be installing it tomorrow and then will perform another road test to see if it increased.

May post pics soon.

that is all.

-----------------------
Post 2: NEW UPDATE MAY 5th 2008

I understand the following may arouse intense disbelief, and am already prepared to be accused a liar (well, prepared in that - I don't really care ). For those who actually follow what I test with an open mind, here's for you.

Yesterday I embarked on a 680 mile interstate trip. I scrutinized my movements and adjustments as much as possible during the trip and performed 3 mpg tests. The terrain was mostly flat and straight with few curves.
Here are the mpg tests and adjustments as occurred:

1st test: Topped off tank, drove 61 miles. Topped of tank and took .978 gal to top off again. = 62.37 mpg
Adjustment made after: Opened bubbler valve 2 turns more to allow more outside air return to jar per vaccuum taken out.

2nd test: Topped tank, drove 78 miles. Took 1.07 gal to top off = 72.89 mpg .
Notes: Water level decreased to little above half full - thus original volume of baking soda reacts to less water present creating more gas.
Adjustment made after: Increased bubbler valve 1 more turn.

3rd test: Topped tank, drove 103 miles. Gas needle had barely budged and I became suspicous at 103 miles that gauge may had reacted badly to all these experiments. Pulled over exit at 103 miles and took 1.15 gal to top off tank. = 89.56 mpg!
Notes: Water level dropped a little below half full and more gas was being produced in greater volume - again I suspect because the same amount of baking soda was present in a lesser amount of water with the same amount of electricity available. If there are better theories out there, I would be very interested in to know how to continue duplicating these results.
Adjustment made after: opened bubbler valve more to compensate for the quickly depleting water supply.

Drove next 300 miles on under a quarter tank (I have a 15.5 gal tank)and stopped counting because I really needed to get to my destination on time.

Other observations: Drove no more than 70 mph and no less than 60 mph for whole trip (except for starts and stops at exits). After each adjustment and length of trip, less and less did I need to touch accelerator pedal to achieve same speeds. Eventually, I had to adjust to tapping the pedal on and off to prevent speeding.
Also, water ran out completely at around 80 miles left to go in the trip and I noticed because much more depression on accel pedal was required to achieve speed. (Soon stopped along road to pop the hood and confirm that this was correct and I was out of water)
Gas needle started to decline at normal rate thereafter.

Mods to be made: A quick-fill plug on the lid to remove and fill with pre-mixed electrolyte kept in trunk of car.
Habits to be made: Not filling jar all the way up. Not screaming at top of my lungs like an idiot at gas stations when learning about higher mpg (when I hit my 89 mpg, I lost it in laughter and whoops - got alot of concerned looks).
-------------------------------------------
NOTES for the above:
1.I’ve stopped using baking soda completely. It rusts 304 l stainless like it were pure iron and the water needed changed after about every day.
2.No longer using the 2-plate design. I met up with a local research group who gave me a few free designs to try out and even provided me with a newer design generator in exchange for my submission of my results and vehicle for testing.
3.The tin foil wrap still remains on my o2 sensor and I’ve never removed it. Although there is no proof it does anything, I’m not going to tamper with success.


------------------------------------------
Post 3: May 24, 2008

Quick update:
due to recommendation from people here and also from a local research group I have been studying with, I have officially switched my electrolyte to Sodium Hydroxide.
I can't believe I've waited this long to do it! It's an electrolyte wonder.
Only takes less than 1/2 teaspoon and the water stays crystal clear! Been running it for 3 days now and no residue at all! The plates are clean as ever with no corrosion and the HHO output is incredible. It's doing with 1/2 teaspoon what would take 2 tablespoons of baking soda alone to do, and the water is remaining relatively cool after hours of use.
No more baking soda for me Will add rubbing alcohol in the winter though.
------------------------------------------------

Post 4: May 27, 2008

WOW, too many questions over one night to quote them all.
Bear with me everyone, I'll do my best to answer this in one shot without taking up alot of paragraphs.

My 1 inch spacing was used back when I was bathing them in a heavy electrolyte mixture of baking soda, vinegar, hydrogen peroxide and alcohol. That spacing with over a tablespoon of bakind soda -and everything else - was perfect for not allowing the plates to become too hot while at the same time producing alot of HHO. Problem became that all that baking soda quickly obliverated my plates. I changed the plates every week until I finally just switched to sodium hydroxide.

NOW: I use the exact same gen setup with two plates spaced 1/2 inch apart and using 1/2 teaspoon of Sodium Hydroxide. I am getting about the same HHO production as with the old setup and the tremendous soup of baking soda and everything else - WITHOUT effecting the plates at all. It is about 5 days (478 miles) into it now and the water is still crystal clear. I am producing probably 1.75 litres/min HHO.

Am I worried about sodium hydroxide hurting my engine? No.
jaksav7 posted a rather interesting experiment with aluminum he did recently (on another thread) that furthur eases any concerns I may have had. I am not using alot of Sodium Hydroxide in the water, and for the most obvious fact - I am not actually running Sodium Hydroxide itself (in its concentrated form) into the engine. I am not completely sure of what happens when you electrocute SOH in water; but I am not convinced its enough to deter me.

Am I using a bubbler? No.
My car has 191k miles on it. I have two other ford probes in better shape -with less mileage- standing by. This current car is my ultimate test vehicle. I'm trying everything with it. After running this one gen. for a few months on it (and recording my results), then I am going to add another gen.. then another.. and keep going until either the MPG stops improving, reverses, or my car falls apart (in which case, a local research group is dontating $100 dollars to my contribution to researching this science). Yes, I'm either that persistent or that stupid. I won't be offended for you to draw the later conclusion. So I am not installing a bubbler now. I don't want anything standing in the way of "bare minumum" progress.
I even have approaching plans of running my car off home-made ethanol (which is perfectly legal to make if you obtain a free permit from the A&TC) and HHO alone... but that will be a few months off yet.

Fun new experimental note:
Last night I was tinkering with the lid on my generator and accidentally shorted it out while the switch was turned on. It quickly melted a small hole in the lid right by the neg. terminal and set a steady stream of gas and flame up through the hole. It was so well co-ordinated that I stood back by the switch and left it go to see what would happen. The plates in the water (while shorting themselves) electrocuted the water producing LOTS of HHO and sending the gas up through the hole and making a large flame out the top. The flame kept growing larger and larger until my slow-release 30 amp fuse finally blew. So for the total duration of about 9 seconds, It went through 19 oz. of water and turned it all into gas and that gas fed an enormous flame which pretty much melted 1/4 of the metal lid to my generator. It was awesome. (I had another generator together in 20 minutes to take its place).

cheers.
-----------------------------------------------------
Post 5: June 3rd 2008

In order of last three posts' questions asked:

1. I only use NaOH and rubbing alcohol now. Nothing else. My temperature stays relatively cool, but I have mine positioned far enough from the engine (per my photos) and I don't use that much NaOH. (a road test last week (averaging 75-80 mph) revealed 82 mpg. So I'm still up there)

2. I rebuilt my gen since the long road trip with the 89mpg results. I met up with a local research team that -to my delight- focus their efforts on hydrogen technology. I kinda stole my new gen design from them. It works a bit better than my old gen as it doesn't get quite as warm and the plates are a little closer together (not much though). They also recommended I use NaOH.

3. Draino has sodium hydroxide in it, but it also has other stuff you don't want in there with your water. Lowe's carries a brand of crystal drain opener by the name of Roebic, and it is 100% NaOH. I have been told by people on here and elsewhere that because your gen only requires a very small amount of NaOH, there is little to no potential risk to the engine (unless you happen to get water sucked in through your vacuum line). I don't use a bubbler, but I believe a bubbler would remove the small potential risk involved. NaOH is bad for aluminum parts.
-----------------------------------------------------
Post 6: update June 23 2008

UPDATE:
Road test with wife's 93 v6 auto-trans Ford Probe: ***my F.Probe is a 4 cyl, hers is a v6***
-NO o2 sensor mod.
-62 mile road test (Mountain and Interstate)
-average speed between 50-80 mph
-16 oz. generator given to me by a lovely local research group (I'm a test subject now )
-one line going into the PCV valve, NO air intake line.

RESULTS:
- WAS getting average 20.5 MPG city/highway combined
- NOW getting average 49 MPG city/mountain/highway

Next tests for this vehicle:
-Highway miles only.
-Backroads only.
-With Air intake also installed to.
-With O2 tin wrap with PCV line alone.
-With O2 tin wrap with Air intake line also.
-Without O2 wrap with PCV and Air Intake line.

** note ** whenever I mention mountain miles - that means actually going up and down a mountain on a two way road.. not a highway going up and down a mountain with a gradual slope.

----------------------------------------------------------

Replies to good questions:

1.**Bubbler seems to be a very ambiguous term right now in the HHO gen setup. It can either mean a separate aparatus in which the gas is bubbled through water to ultimately prevent water vapor from entering the engine (which is what you are talking about) or it can mean a small adjustable cap on the generator that is turned to control the vacuum flow of the HHO and the return of outside air into the container. So far, no water has been sucked into my engine.

2.** (note made by Mike): Just a point of definition: a bubbler is a device that holds water, and is designed so the HHO must pass through the water as bubbles before having an open passage into the engine. The purpose of the bubbler is provide a barrier to any flash back that might occur if the hho gets ignited. Any such flashback would be effectively stopped at the water barrier. If some folks call something else a bubbler, they are just mistaken.

3.The copper line goes from the gen to the pcv and air intake and is to heat the HHO gas as it travels through the lines. When gas heats, it expands and this will also help in colder temperatures -as the vehicle warms up- to keep the gas at a moderately warm temperature. Cold gases compress and warm gases expand.
----------------------------------------------------------------

My current setup:

As stated in one of the posts above, I have since the first two posts replaced my home-made generator with one –now- that was donated to me by a local research group. Since switching from baking soda to NaOH, my mileage has slightly dropped to an average 75 mpg. I am currently working with this research group to use their current generator design and my know-how to bring it back up. NaOH causes the generator to run much cooler than baking soda and saves more money in the long run by the lack of maintenance that the baking soda caused to be required. NaOH is completely harmless to the electrodes of the current generator that I use.

I am posting the same photos here of my under-the-hood setup which has not changed in any way.


------------------------------
NEW!
Here's a video of my setup on my car and my wife's car. I apologize for the first 40 seconds of the video as it is without sound. The sound comes in after 40.
My Setup on Youtube Video
------------------------------------------

Updates: July 8

Installed a 16 oz. Generator on my mother's 1995 Saturn, 4 cyl, manual trans.
Installed to the PCV location only. No o2 sensor adjustment "yet."

Road test on total mountain miles: 48.7 mpg (probably more on interstate).

Installing a second generator to air intake line soon.

-----------------------------------------------

Update on my Father's 2000 Ford Explorer, 6 cyl, auto trans:
Installed 32 oz. generator to PCV.
Results: not so hot. 15 mpg. Has noticeable more HP though.

Adjustments to be made: going to install the EFIE I bought from Mike to the o2 sensor at the CC. Have reason to believe that for once, the o2 sensors will be an issue here.

----------------------------------

Notes:

As Craig pointed out here, yes - there is more HHO production with the vacuum adjustment valve opened more. I found that out during my long road trip back in May.
Two things occur:
1. More oxygen is entered into the mix and raises the octane of the gasoline.
2. The turbulance caused by the outside air bursting through the water causes more water to pass by the electrodes in the gen. This exposes more water/sec to the electrodes and thus increases HHO production.


can you run some additional tests please:

1 - with the line sucking air only (nothing else)

2 - with Sodium Hydroxide and water only (nothing else)

3 - with pure 100% Alcohol only and NO power to the plates
(the jar will be very cold)

4 - with 50/50 mix Alcohol and water and NO power to the plates
(the jar will be cold)

5 - with pure Gasoline in the jar and no plates (just like a bubler)
(the jar will be cold)

My guess is:

1 - 2-3% gain

2 - 10-12% gain or LESS

3 - 25-30% gain or MORE

4 - 15-20% gain or MORE

5 - 15-20% gain or MORE
(This post was last modified: 07-10-2008 06:16 PM by mattsauto.)
07-10-2008 06:13 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Heheh, if you put GAS in the bottle, feed it to the engine, how is that a gain? You just lost the gas!
07-10-2008 06:39 PM
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mattsauto Offline
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Post: #28
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Gary Wrote:Heheh, if you put GAS in the bottle, feed it to the engine, how is that a gain? You just lost the gas!

it is called "cold vapor" system and AFTER you run the test, let's talk again
07-10-2008 06:46 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #29
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
Easy man, just a little humor.
I would like to see the results of all that tho.
07-10-2008 07:00 PM
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app_master Offline
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Post: #30
RE: 57 MPG and increasing! (89 MPG update) Compilation Thread **NEW VIDEO OF MY SETUP**
mattsauto Wrote:can you run some additional tests please:

1 - with the line sucking air only (nothing else)

2 - with Sodium Hydroxide and water only (nothing else)

3 - with pure 100% Alcohol only and NO power to the plates
(the jar will be very cold)

4 - with 50/50 mix Alcohol and water and NO power to the plates
(the jar will be cold)

5 - with pure Gasoline in the jar and no plates (just like a bubler)
(the jar will be cold)

My guess is:

1 - 2-3% gain

2 - 10-12% gain or LESS

3 - 25-30% gain or MORE

4 - 15-20% gain or MORE

5 - 15-20% gain or MORE

Why would he try those? when his current results are MUCH better - that would a step in the wrong direction...IMHO?
But suggestions for someone not gaining with one thing and looking for other options to try...thanks...
07-10-2008 10:25 PM
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