Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
Author Message
that0n3guy Offline
Member
***

Posts: 43
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #1
Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
I have a theory. I posted it here http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php...7#pid17277

I think that its not the 'h2' allows for vehicles to have higher MPG... its the several other variables that have changed... that no one seems to be talking about.

Variable 1: Lower amps
If you pull less amps from the vehicle (as compared to your hho booster), your putting less load on the engine. (dont even try to tell me that its not putting extra load on the engine because the alternator is already spinning and already putting out the power, ask an alternator manuf. its about a 1 HP per 25 amps for the good alternators...)

Variable 2: LPM
Most h2 systems put out 1-3 LPH, not LPM. Try only adding 1-3 LPH of hho to your engine and see how it compares.

Just a theory... try it out.. proove me wrong Smile.

-Peter
(p.s. If I forget to check back here yell at me over at http://aquauto.com )

http://Aquauto.com - Join our community - See if your vehicle is in our database - increase your MPG
09-16-2008 05:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jjb2888 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 204
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #2
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:I have a theory. I posted it here http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php...7#pid17277

I think that its not the 'h2' allows for vehicles to have higher MPG... its the several other variables that have changed... that no one seems to be talking about.

Variable 1: Lower amps
If you pull less amps from the vehicle (as compared to your hho booster), your putting less load on the engine. (dont even try to tell me that its not putting extra load on the engine because the alternator is already spinning and already putting out the power, ask an alternator manuf. its about a 1 HP per 25 amps for the good alternators...)

Variable 2: LPM
Most h2 systems put out 1-3 LPH, not LPM. Try only adding 1-3 LPH of hho to your engine and see how it compares.

Just a theory... try it out.. proove me wrong Smile.

-Peter
(p.s. If I forget to check back here yell at me over at http://aquauto.com )
read this


Attached File(s)
.pdf  fcm01r0.pdf (Size: 1.33 MB / Downloads: 189)
09-16-2008 06:51 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
finallyME Offline
Member
***

Posts: 148
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #3
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
jjb2888 Wrote:
that0n3guy Wrote:I have a theory. I posted it here http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php...7#pid17277

I think that its not the 'h2' allows for vehicles to have higher MPG... its the several other variables that have changed... that no one seems to be talking about.

Variable 1: Lower amps
If you pull less amps from the vehicle (as compared to your hho booster), your putting less load on the engine. (dont even try to tell me that its not putting extra load on the engine because the alternator is already spinning and already putting out the power, ask an alternator manuf. its about a 1 HP per 25 amps for the good alternators...)

Variable 2: LPM
Most h2 systems put out 1-3 LPH, not LPM. Try only adding 1-3 LPH of hho to your engine and see how it compares.

Just a theory... try it out.. proove me wrong Smile.

-Peter
(p.s. If I forget to check back here yell at me over at http://aquauto.com )
read this

Sorry jjb2888, but I fail to see how your link addresses any of his questions. Anyways, I think the first variable is vital for what we are doing. I just wish there was an easy way for me to find that magic amp number. Big Grin

My vehicles:
2002 Saturn SL2 4 banger
2006 Chrysler Town and Country

You can kill two birds with one stone, but you can't kill one stone with two birds. Big Grin
09-17-2008 05:20 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
that0n3guy Offline
Member
***

Posts: 43
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #4
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
I agree, I don't see how that file really pertains to my 'theory'.


Quote:I just wish there was an easy way for me to find that magic amp number.

I think it can be very difficult to find the 'magic amp number'. Once you think you've found the number, your computers might start to learn and adjust to the hydroxy, giving you better mileage and maybe allowing for more amperage.

I've read that Bob Boyce promotes letting your computer learn and do what its supposed too. We usually arent patient enough to let it do its job. For a more detailed explaination see my post here http://aquauto.com/content/whats-best-wa...omment-771

Also, If you want to see my theory on amp usage and LPM usage and there relationship to MPG, check out my blog post here: http://aquauto.com/blogs/that0n3guy/everything-curve

Hopefully stir's up the pot and we get some good discussion from it.

http://Aquauto.com - Join our community - See if your vehicle is in our database - increase your MPG
09-17-2008 05:32 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jjb2888 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 204
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #5
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:I agree, I don't see how that file really pertains to my 'theory'.


Quote:I just wish there was an easy way for me to find that magic amp number.

I think it can be very difficult to find the 'magic amp number'. Once you think you've found the number, your computers might start to learn and adjust to the hydroxy, giving you better mileage and maybe allowing for more amperage.

I've read that Bob Boyce promotes letting your computer learn and do what its supposed too. We usually arent patient enough to let it do its job. For a more detailed explaination see my post here http://aquauto.com/content/whats-best-wa...omment-771

Also, If you want to see my theory on amp usage and LPM usage and there relationship to MPG, check out my blog post here: http://aquauto.com/blogs/that0n3guy/everything-curve

Hopefully stir's up the pot and we get some good discussion from it.

Your theory was you are unsure that its really the hydrogen that give the increase but rather less amp draw. Also I posted the wrong document here is the one I meant to post. It shows test results form scientist that show improvement. As far as Bob Boyce's theory. These computers are not able to learn for themselves, they react to input from sensors and a preprogrammed set of parameters to react to the input. Using logarithms programed in to them to do the job. In example if sensor "A" says "b" and then do "c". The computer is in no way able to think for itself as you state. Someday maybe but not now. I do aggree that to much amp draw may hinder any gains, but the underlying issue here is really no extra oxygen. That is the ultimate culprit in all of this.


Attached File(s)
.pdf  hydrogen_injection.pdf (Size: 40.18 KB / Downloads: 111)
09-17-2008 10:45 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
that0n3guy Offline
Member
***

Posts: 43
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #6
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
Oh, but computers DO learn. Not quite in the sense that your talking about, and usually more toward when to shift. If you tend to drive with a lead foot, then your car will tend to shift sooner. If you drive carefully so as to conserve gas, then the next time you stop on the gas, it wont shift as fast. I've had to retrain my Dodge caravan several times (all dodges have poor tranny's :P ). I can see ECU's being the same way.

Also, my theory wasnt JUST about amp draw, but about the LPM injected. You forgot to mention that in above.

That is a good read, I liked it. But it doesn't say anything about 'extra oxygen' caused by useing hho vs h2. Actually, there are many places in the article that state that "small amounts of hydrogen and oxygen" are added to the engine, or "the presence of nascent (atomic) hydrogen and nascent oxygen, which initiate a chain reaction".

In fact, this document helps support my theories. It always states "small mounts" of hydrogen and oxygen were added. Also, the one time it talks about using using power from the engine, it states they used 100 watts... which would be less than 10 amps (100Watts / 13.8 volts = 7.2 amps). Most people are easily pulling more then that, usually 20-30 amps.


So thanks for the document.

http://Aquauto.com - Join our community - See if your vehicle is in our database - increase your MPG
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2008 12:00 PM by that0n3guy.)
09-17-2008 11:57 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
howiemandel Offline
Member
***

Posts: 421
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #7
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
The more I think about this guys, is I dont think the added oxygen is a problem. I think it helps the process with the added hydrogen. Oxygen provides a better burn, right? we all know that. Think about it for a minute.
Im sick of saying this, but most of the guys. (READ MOST) getting big gains, get them from injecting as close to or at, the plenum.
Heres what I believe. First. Hydrogen from what i read, is the most unstable atom around, as far as in it wants to bond with another molecue/atom quickly. As in, now. If you have a LONG gas hose, and inject down by the airbox, and then it has to travel say what? 1 or 2 more feet... thats alot of time for the hydrogen to bond with stuff, or starts to get in a state of being less active, to where its close to become something else. I think injecting farther away and without vacuum, the process starts to "strip" hydrogen away. Leaving alot of oxygen, im guessing to be picked up the sensors.
In a vacuum, the gas does react differently. If you dont believe it, look around on youtube. Its different. Some suggest, that being in a vacuum puts the hydrogen atom in a "higher" state so it doesnt want to "bond" as quickly as it normally does. Add that, to injection into the plenum and whammo. Higher gas mileage gains.
This is my theory. And honestly, guys getting 1 to 4 mpg gains, typically arnt using vacuum, and are injecting it farther away from the plenum, and using 3 or 4 feet of hose, in some cases.
S10HYBRID sorta defies this, as his gas hose was God, i dont know, 10 feet long. However, he also has/had a BUCKET for a generator in the back of his truck, so one would think his production was a bit higher then the average user.
09-17-2008 12:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
that0n3guy Offline
Member
***

Posts: 43
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #8
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
I never thought of that before Howie... something to think about.

And what you bring up is yet... another variable. There are so many little things that we would be thoroughly testing before we test h2 systems.

Everyone is so convinced that at the end of a the gas + hydrogen + oxygen reaction there is extra oxygen. But I see no evidence (besides the theory that the o2 sensor is seeing extra o2) to that being the case. Last I saw, there was still an argument going on as to whether or not the o2 sensor even actually detected oxygen (or a ratio of it).

http://Aquauto.com - Join our community - See if your vehicle is in our database - increase your MPG
09-17-2008 01:30 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
jjb2888 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 204
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #9
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:I never thought of that before Howie... something to think about.

And what you bring up is yet... another variable. There are so many little things that we would be thoroughly testing before we test h2 systems.

Everyone is so convinced that at the end of a the gas + hydrogen + oxygen reaction there is extra oxygen. But I see no evidence (besides the theory that the o2 sensor is seeing extra o2) to that being the case. Last I saw, there was still an argument going on as to whether or not the o2 sensor even actually detected oxygen (or a ratio of it).

The o2 sensor does see oxygen but not it the way you think. Free oxygen left after combustion is what is picked up by the sensor. The coating on the sensor picks it up and reacts to it thourgh oxidation, this is what creates the voltage signal to the computer. But another factor in that is heat. If the combustion process is too hot then you are running to lean. So the sensor actually uses two ways for detecting the oxygen. I understand what you are saying about you shift points, but again it is done through sensors in the transmission. Again using logarithms to set the shift points. It will only go so far in either direction. So in your theory about computers learning for themselves we could all just hyper mile and get better mileage. No need for hho or hydrogen. But I also agree with the fact too much may be a hindrance, but too much oxygen. There is plenty of oxygen in the air to support combustion. I am going to use an oxy-acetylene torch as an example. If you turn the acetylene on you get a lot of carbon, add a little oxygen you then have a clean very hot flame, too much oxygen the flame goes out. If the ratio of fuel to oxygen is too lean you will lose combustion because oxygen will have a cooling effect if too much is added. But in the right ratio will cause the fuel to burn hot. The few who have built h only systems here some have had small and large hho units with electronics and all that, and still no gains. But with straight hydrogen gains. Read this thread.
http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php...180&page=3
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2008 01:56 PM by jjb2888.)
09-17-2008 01:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
howiemandel Offline
Member
***

Posts: 421
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #10
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
Right but we are still where we were 2 posts ago. Extra 02. WE are putting in extra Hydrogen, and Oxygen. 2x the amount of extra oxygen. One would have to think that the extra molecue would work nicely with the 2 hydrogens, for the "burn" What im saying, is simply, in the process of pipin' it to the "burn" area, we lose hydrogen. Hydrogen, remember, bonds quickly, to metal, carbon, oxygen, ANYTHING. In a blink of an eye. So I purpose we lose hydrogen in the pipin in to the plenum. Thus now having extra 0xygen, that otherwise woulda been spent supporting the hydrogen.
Seems common sense.
For Grins, I took my HHO setup OFF from my plenum, and only ran an airbox generator. I had a check engine light come on, within 25 miles. I reset it, turned my plenum injected generator on, and...........that was over 150 miles ago, no check engine light. And I fairly certain it gonna come on. Hasnt in 4,000 miles. Oh, I did this saturday I believe. As far as heat, more and more information is comming in, that injecting HHO, actually "COOLS" down your engine. While not in a substantial manner, cooler is cooler.
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2008 03:49 PM by howiemandel.)
09-17-2008 03:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)