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Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
howiemandel Wrote:Right but we are still where we were 2 posts ago. Extra 02. WE are putting in extra Hydrogen, and Oxygen. 2x the amount of extra oxygen. One would have to think that the extra molecue would work nicely with the 2 hydrogens, for the "burn" What im saying, is simply, in the process of pipin' it to the "burn" area, we lose hydrogen. Hydrogen, remember, bonds quickly, to metal, carbon, oxygen, ANYTHING. In a blink of an eye. So I purpose we lose hydrogen in the pipin in to the plenum. Thus now having extra 0xygen, that otherwise woulda been spent supporting the hydrogen.
Seems common sense.
For Grins, I took my HHO setup OFF from my plenum, and only ran an airbox generator. I had a check engine light come on, within 25 miles. I reset it, turned my plenum injected generator on, and...........that was over 150 miles ago, no check engine light. And I fairly certain it gonna come on. Hasnt in 4,000 miles. Oh, I did this saturday I believe. As far as heat, more and more information is comming in, that injecting HHO, actually "COOLS" down your engine. While not in a substantial manner, cooler is cooler.

Well, remember we are discussing straight hydrogen. With hho you have the hydrogen combined with the oxygen, but as you state we would lose hydrogen, but in fact it will combine with the oxygen as well as the other gases in the air before it will combine with a solid substance. In basic chemistry like substances combine better than unlike substances. For instance two gases will combine easier than a gas and a solid. If that was the case then we would end up with straight oxygen because the hydrogen would never make it out of the generator. It would combine with the plate the water it must travel through and so on. So I believe that all the hydrogen will make it to the engine. But to set the record straight here is the way an o2 sensor works cut and pasted from NGK's website:
"An oxygen sensor is a measuring probe for determining the oxygen content of the exhaust gas. Since the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gas indicates precisely how complete the combustion of the air-fuel mixture in the cylinders is, it is also the best starting point for controlling the air-fuel ratio. The oxygen sensor is strategically located in the exhaust system. The outside surface of the ceramic measuring tube protrudes into the exhaust gas flow, and the inner surface is in contact with the outside air. A voltage is generated at the interface which is proportional to the relationship between residual oxygen in the exhaust gas and that of the surrounding air. When this relationship changes, so does the voltage. This voltage is processed by an electronic control unit (ECU) into a control signal for influencing the air-fuel mixture through controllable fuel injection or carburetor systems. The exhaust gas composition is thus always maintained at that level which permits effective after-treatment by the vehicle's catalytic converter. " I hope this settles the argument on that.
One other question do you have a maf sensor on your car?
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2008 06:38 PM by jjb2888.)
09-17-2008 06:37 PM
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that0n3guy Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
Do we agree that H2 wants to bind with whatever it can as soon as it can? I think yes. So if its going to bind with the first oxygen it see's (a polar covalent bond...I googled Smile ). So when the hydroxy mixes with the fuel and explodes... does the h2 and o2 rebind to create water? I would think so. So why would you have extra oxygen? It goes water -> gas -> water...

It is always stated that hydroxy is a catalyst to the fuel, accelerating the burn. By definition a catalyst remains unchanged... it does not combine with the whatever your mixing it with. So if that is the case... then your not going to have extra o2 from the booster.

One thing we do know for sure is that the process causes fuel to burn more completely and cooler, so if the o2 goes off temp also, that would be something that would change it.

Lastly I read through the saturn thread. He is still most likely using less amps and less Gas... he should try the same amps and gas with HHO and see what happends.

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(This post was last modified: 09-18-2008 05:27 AM by that0n3guy.)
09-18-2008 05:26 AM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:Do we agree that H2 wants to bind with whatever it can as soon as it can? I think yes. So if its going to bind with the first oxygen it see's (a polar covalent bond...I googled Smile ). So when the hydroxy mixes with the fuel and explodes... does the h2 and o2 rebind to create water? I would think so. So why would you have extra oxygen? It goes water -> gas -> water...

It is always stated that hydroxy is a catalyst to the fuel, accelerating the burn. By definition a catalyst remains unchanged... it does not combine with the whatever your mixing it with. So if that is the case... then your not going to have extra o2 from the booster.

One thing we do know for sure is that the process causes fuel to burn more completely and cooler, so if the o2 goes off temp also, that would be something that would change it.

Lastly I read through the saturn thread. He is still most likely using less amps and less Gas... he should try the same amps and gas with HHO and see what happends.

The difference is the hydrogen bonding with the oxygen in the air. Not extra coming in from hho. For the hydrogen and oxygen to form water as you say you need a some sort of chemical reaction. The electrolyzer produces an electrochemical reaction to split the water. It takes another chemical reaction such a combustion to bring it back to its original state as water. It won't do it all by itself. If it did then hho won't exist. You would split the water and as the bubbles rise to the surface then they would recombine as water. Which is not the case as we all know. We also know that if we use less amps we have less draw on the alternator true and can save gas, but I think the gains versus the amount of energy used is greater. True that hho and hydrogen are being used as a catalyst the combustion process is still not 100% efficient even with hho or hydrogen. So you will always have free floating o2 and other compounds just how much is the key.
09-18-2008 05:54 AM
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that0n3guy Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
I understand it takes a reaction to turn h2 and o2 together. But what I was saying is that if hydroxy is actually a "catalyst" (a defined catalyst), than all you would have is the same amount of oxygen that you would without hydroxy because the "extra oxygen" from your booster is converted back to water with the hydrogen.

But your saying that the h2 uses the 'original' o2 from the air so you would have less o2 available overall. Which would cause the o2 to read lean. Is that what your saying?

Then the term "extra" o2 shouldn't ever be used. There is no extra o2, only an absence of o2 in the h2 only case. In which case it wouldn't be the 'extra' o2 that cause the o2 sensors to freak but the cooler temps and the cleaner burned fuel that causes them to freak.

This is me just thinking out loud here...

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09-18-2008 06:04 AM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:I understand it takes a reaction to turn h2 and o2 together. But what I was saying is that if hydroxy is actually a "catalyst" (a defined catalyst), than all you would have is the same amount of oxygen that you would without hydroxy because the "extra oxygen" from your booster is converted back to water with the hydrogen.

But your saying that the h2 uses the 'original' o2 from the air so you would have less o2 available overall. Which would cause the o2 to read lean. Is that what your saying?

Then the term "extra" o2 shouldn't ever be used. There is no extra o2, only an absence of o2 in the h2 only case. In which case it wouldn't be the 'extra' o2 that cause the o2 sensors to freak but the cooler temps and the cleaner burned fuel that causes them to freak.

This is me just thinking out loud here...

It is a combination of both that causes the o2 sensor to freak out, mostly extra o2. I posted above how an o2 sensor works. Not only in my own words but in NGK's words who manufacture o2 sensors. When I say the oxygen combines with the hydrogen in the air intake that is still only a theory. But based on hydrogens instability that seems probable. If you have less o2 in the exhaust depending on how much you will have a good mixture or a rich mixture because it is being combined with other elements to to keep it from being just oxygen. An o2 sensor will not see oxygen in CO, CO2, H2O etc. It only sees O2. the term extra o2 is only in reference to hho.
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2008 06:24 AM by jjb2888.)
09-18-2008 06:23 AM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:I understand it takes a reaction to turn h2 and o2 together. But what I was saying is that if hydroxy is actually a "catalyst" (a defined catalyst), than all you would have is the same amount of oxygen that you would without hydroxy because the "extra oxygen" from your booster is converted back to water with the hydrogen.

But your saying that the h2 uses the 'original' o2 from the air so you would have less o2 available overall. Which would cause the o2 to read lean. Is that what your saying?

Then the term "extra" o2 shouldn't ever be used. There is no extra o2, only an absence of o2 in the h2 only case. In which case it wouldn't be the 'extra' o2 that cause the o2 sensors to freak but the cooler temps and the cleaner burned fuel that causes them to freak.

This is me just thinking out loud here...


Maybe catalyst is the wrong term. At any rate, the small amounts of hydrogen causes the gasoline to burn more efficiently and completely. Call it what you want.

In HHO, you are using "extra" oxygen. You are injecting "extra" hydrogen and "extra" oxygen into the cylinder. By not injecting the "extra" oxygen and only the "extra" hydrogen, the hydrogen then uses the available oxygen from the air stream. This tells the computer that the mix is too rich.

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09-18-2008 06:24 AM
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that0n3guy Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
Ok, so IF we do say there is extra o2 in the car that still doesn't really have anything to do w/ my original theories. No one has compared hho vs h2 with the same specs.

We should do that comparison before we make assumptions I guess.

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09-18-2008 06:36 AM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:Ok, so IF we do say there is extra o2 in the car that still doesn't really have anything to do w/ my original theories. No one has compared hho vs h2 with the same specs.

We should do that comparison before we make assumptions I guess.
No I think it would be a good comparison. I do know I had a small hho unit hooked up pulling 8 amps and lost mileage. So these h2 units run 6-8 amps. Though I believe that h2 only is the answer a comparison would be good to show that. I was just trying to convey that extra o2 causes a problem thats all. It is true in all forms of combustion.
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2008 06:48 AM by jjb2888.)
09-18-2008 06:46 AM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
that0n3guy Wrote:Ok, so IF we do say there is extra o2 in the car that still doesn't really have anything to do w/ my original theories. No one has compared hho vs h2 with the same specs.

We should do that comparison before we make assumptions I guess.

I agree completely. Big Grin Big Grin

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You can kill two birds with one stone, but you can't kill one stone with two birds. Big Grin
09-18-2008 06:47 AM
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that0n3guy Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Anyone tried there 'h2' setup but with hho?
jjb2888 Wrote:No I think it would be a good comparison. I do know I had a small hho unit hooked up pulling 8 amps and lost mileage. So these h2 units run 6-8 amps. Though I believe that h2 only is the answer a comparison would be good to show that. I was just trying to convey that extra o2 causes a problem thats all. It is true in all forms of combustion.

Most of the units I've seen pull less than 6 amps, and thats when they were hot. Your's was probably pulling 6 to start out and then up'ed as it got hot (just a guess). And the LPM wouldn't even be close to the same between the two.

Assuming the comparison is the same is not the same as actually comparing them. Both amperage and LPM (maybe not at the same time, but maybe so).

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09-18-2008 07:35 AM
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