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Aquatune
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Aquatune
(08-22-2009 04:39 AM)Ryanrpm Wrote:  Thanks for that information.

Now, add Hydrogen in the mix...and what do you get? That's what the Aquatune does.

This needs to be paid attention to- from the Wikipedia article:

"Fuel economy can be improved with water injection, although the effect on most engines with no other modification, like leaning out the mixture, appears to be rather limited or even negligible in some cases.

Some degree of control over the water injection is important. It needs to be injected only when the engine is heavily loaded and the throttle is wide open. Otherwise injecting water may simply drown the engine and cause it to quit".
08-22-2009 07:47 AM
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Ryanrpm Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Aquatune
I'm not sure that answers my question. Adding an Aquatune system to a car means you have air, fuel, hydrogen, and 'cracked' water in the mix.

I don't think Wikipedia accounts for a mixture like that.

Purchased! The AquaThrustPlus. Installed on my engine: Tundra 4.7L

[Image: f_emp3hbpw24tm_bcf4d7d.jpg] [Image: f_d32qa8uwm_b9baaff.jpg]

My next mods: Envalve, Vapor Assist.
08-22-2009 08:25 AM
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Aquatune
(08-22-2009 08:25 AM)Ryanrpm Wrote:  I'm not sure that answers my question. Adding an Aquatune system to a car means you have air, fuel, hydrogen, and 'cracked' water in the mix.

I don't think Wikipedia accounts for a mixture like that.

But the article says water should be added to the mix only on full throttle, like the WW11 airplanes on takeoff. Water should not be constantly added.
Why is this forum so absorbed with adding baking soda to the HHO to make it work when Aquatune doesn't use it at all. 2 different methods-if it works w/o soda, why is everyone here using it?
08-22-2009 09:22 AM
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Ryanrpm Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Aquatune
(08-22-2009 09:22 AM)rpatzer Wrote:  But the article says water should be added to the mix only on full throttle, like the WW11 airplanes on takeoff. Water should not be constantly added.
Why is this forum so absorbed with adding baking soda to the HHO to make it work when Aquatune doesn't use it at all. 2 different methods-if it works w/o soda, why is everyone here using it?

I do not know why this forum is so absorbed with adding baking soda to HHO. I've got under 20 posts to my name so far... I barely know how the whole hydrogen fuel cell works, but I'm still learning.Big Grin

If I read you right, you may be asking "How can the Aquatune make Hydrogen and water work together in an engine, when every other hydrogen device uses some kind of caustic in order to create the hydrogen?"

I would highly recommend you contact the owner/inventor of Aquatune, Nick, and talk with him about the design and science of how it works. He knows what he's talking about and has been doing research in this field for about 35 years. I'd love to talk more about it, but don't have the knowledge to make a case one way or the other.Crazy

Purchased! The AquaThrustPlus. Installed on my engine: Tundra 4.7L

[Image: f_emp3hbpw24tm_bcf4d7d.jpg] [Image: f_d32qa8uwm_b9baaff.jpg]

My next mods: Envalve, Vapor Assist.
(This post was last modified: 08-22-2009 12:54 PM by Ryanrpm.)
08-22-2009 12:53 PM
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kumaran Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Aquatune
Hi guys,

Sorry for not posting to this site for very long time.

Until today I'm still experimenting with Hydroxy and its effect to fuel economy.

  1. Few months back I did experiment O2 sensor by heating with propane burner. O2 sensor shows nearly 1V when heated (less fuel) and immediately goes to nearly 0V (fuel rich) when O2 sensor removed away from burner.
  2. Hydroxy burn rate is faster than gasoline (fact) and help to complete burn fuel pored in to combustion chamber.


With above points, I have argued with many people that O2 sensor does not sensing oxygen to control fuel but temperature.

What is my point here?

By applying hydroxy, fuel burned complete and no extra fuel hits O2 sensor to cool it down. O2 sensor send near 1V and ECu starts injecting extra fuel into combustion chamber. This is why car consume more fuel than usual.

By injecting water into combustion chamber, it helps to cool down O2 sensor. When O2 cold, it sends signal nearly 0V to ECU and ECU limits fuel entering into combustion chamber.

Amount of hydroxy and water got to be right amount to gain maximum fuel economy without adjusting sensor signals.

This is just my theory based on my observation by doing experiments. If the theory contradict, please ignore my post.

Regards,
Kumaran
(Knowledge without action is useless, action without knowledge is foolish)
08-23-2009 07:54 AM
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Aquatune
(08-23-2009 07:54 AM)kumaran Wrote:  Hi guys,

Sorry for not posting to this site for very long time.

Until today I'm still experimenting with Hydroxy and its effect to fuel economy.

  1. Few months back I did experiment O2 sensor by heating with propane burner. O2 sensor shows nearly 1V when heated (less fuel) and immediately goes to nearly 0V (fuel rich) when O2 sensor removed away from burner.
  2. Hydroxy burn rate is faster than gasoline (fact) and help to complete burn fuel pored in to combustion chamber.


With above points, I have argued with many people that O2 sensor does not sensing oxygen to control fuel but temperature.

What is my point here?

By applying hydroxy, fuel burned complete and no extra fuel hits O2 sensor to cool it down. O2 sensor send near 1V and ECu starts injecting extra fuel into combustion chamber. This is why car consume more fuel than usual.

By injecting water into combustion chamber, it helps to cool down O2 sensor. When O2 cold, it sends signal nearly 0V to ECU and ECU limits fuel entering into combustion chamber.

Amount of hydroxy and water got to be right amount to gain maximum fuel economy without adjusting sensor signals.

This is just my theory based on my observation by doing experiments. If the theory contradict, please ignore my post.

From what I have read, the O2 sensor does read O2 content. Using the Zirconia Sensor, 200Mv= lean burn and 800Mv=rich burn. The average temp for the sensors is 600 degrees F. Wikipedia says 450Mv is the ideal setting for economy and pollution.
What this tells me is the higher the Mv, the richer the O2 sensor reads, telling the ECU to lean out.
Cooling down the O2 sensor makes no sense to me. It needs to operate at that 600 degrees range. That is why when you first start up with a cold sensor, it is in open loop operation. Because when the sensor is too cold, it sends a faulty signal to the ECU causing poor operating results. This open loop mode really makes the mix rich, which makes the car work better when cold until it reaches the sensor operating temp and then it goes into closed loop mode and starts to adjust the mix for optimum performance.
That is why the newer sensors are heated to the average 600 degrees F. When the sensor gets coated and old, it doesn't read correctly and the performance goes down due to a cooler reading which signals the ECU to go richer.

The pilots in WW11 had a botton and on take off they pressed it causing water to be injected producing steam giving them that extra boost. It was designed for power. After reaching crusing altitude, they stopped the water injection- it served it purpose. It was for power and not economy.
(This post was last modified: 08-23-2009 08:47 AM by rpatzer.)
08-23-2009 08:41 AM
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kumaran Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Aquatune
(08-23-2009 08:41 AM)rpatzer Wrote:  From what I have read, the O2 sensor does read O2 content. Using the Zirconia Sensor, 200Mv= lean burn and 800Mv=rich burn. The average temp for the sensors is 600 degrees F. Wikipedia says 450Mv is the ideal setting for economy and pollution.
What this tells me is the higher the Mv, the richer the O2 sensor reads, telling the ECU to lean out.
Cooling down the O2 sensor makes no sense to me. It needs to operate at that 600 degrees range. That is why when you first start up with a cold sensor, it is in open loop operation. Because when the sensor is too cold, it sends a faulty signal to the ECU causing poor operating results. This open loop mode really makes the mix rich, which makes the car work better when cold until it reaches the sensor operating temp and then it goes into closed loop mode and starts to adjust the mix for optimum performance.
That is why the newer sensors are heated to the average 600 degrees F. When the sensor gets coated and old, it doesn't read correctly and the performance goes down due to a cooler reading which signals the ECU to go richer.

The pilots in WW11 had a botton and on take off they pressed it causing water to be injected producing steam giving them that extra boost. It was designed for power. After reaching crusing altitude, they stopped the water injection- it served it purpose. It was for power and not economy.

You are right. Almost everywhere in the internet says that O2 sensor sense O2 because of Zirconia. I agree totally with you.

Why I come up with this theory?
If we take inefficient hydroxy generator (parallel cell design or open bath design), the cell gets hot in few minutes. When electrolyte gets hot, water vapor or steam exits from cell and enters into air intake.

Small amount of water vapor is enough to cool O2 sensor a little bit and this does affect ECU to reduce fuel injected into combustion chamber. If hydroxy goes through bubbler before enters engine, the saving is much lesser. If hose is longer from cell to air intake, lesser saving. Why efficient series cell gave lesser fuel saving compared to inefficient parallel cell?

Regards,
Kumaran
(Knowledge without action is useless, action without knowledge is foolish)
08-24-2009 04:57 AM
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Aquatune
(08-24-2009 04:57 AM)kumaran Wrote:  
(08-23-2009 08:41 AM)rpatzer Wrote:  From what I have read, the O2 sensor does read O2 content. Using the Zirconia Sensor, 200Mv= lean burn and 800Mv=rich burn. The average temp for the sensors is 600 degrees F. Wikipedia says 450Mv is the ideal setting for economy and pollution.
What this tells me is the higher the Mv, the richer the O2 sensor reads, telling the ECU to lean out.
Cooling down the O2 sensor makes no sense to me. It needs to operate at that 600 degrees range. That is why when you first start up with a cold sensor, it is in open loop operation. Because when the sensor is too cold, it sends a faulty signal to the ECU causing poor operating results. This open loop mode really makes the mix rich, which makes the car work better when cold until it reaches the sensor operating temp and then it goes into closed loop mode and starts to adjust the mix for optimum performance.
That is why the newer sensors are heated to the average 600 degrees F. When the sensor gets coated and old, it doesn't read correctly and the performance goes down due to a cooler reading which signals the ECU to go richer.

The pilots in WW11 had a botton and on take off they pressed it causing water to be injected producing steam giving them that extra boost. It was designed for power. After reaching crusing altitude, they stopped the water injection- it served it purpose. It was for power and not economy.

You are right. Almost everywhere in the internet says that O2 sensor sense O2 because of Zirconia. I agree totally with you.

Why I come up with this theory?
If we take inefficient hydroxy generator (parallel cell design or open bath design), the cell gets hot in few minutes. When electrolyte gets hot, water vapor or steam exits from cell and enters into air intake.

Small amount of water vapor is enough to cool O2 sensor a little bit and this does affect ECU to reduce fuel injected into combustion chamber. If hydroxy goes through bubbler before enters engine, the saving is much lesser. If hose is longer from cell to air intake, lesser saving. Why efficient series cell gave lesser fuel saving compared to inefficient parallel cell?

You don't want to cool the O2 sensor. The cooler it gets, the less efficient is operates. That is why they have a built in heater, to maintain the 600 degrees F.
By the time the small amount of water/steam enters the combustion chamber, it is burnt up and cools nothing.
While the O2 sensor is cold/cool and is heating up on first start, the ECU doesn't read any of the sensors and is in open loop which means it runs rich. My Scan11 meter is pegged at RICH during the first few seconds until the sensor heats up and then moves from open to closed loop and then the ECU starts receiving info from the sensors. But during this brief cold/cool period, the mix is rich. After it reaches the correct temp, then the ECU starts to lean out the mix and the AFR meter starts to "hunt".
(This post was last modified: 08-26-2009 07:26 AM by rpatzer.)
08-24-2009 06:28 AM
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kumaran Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Aquatune
(08-24-2009 06:28 AM)rpatzer Wrote:  You don't want to cool the O2 sensor. The cooler it gets, the less efficient is operates. That is why they have a built in heater, to maintain the 600 degrees F.
By the time the small amount of water/steam enters the combustion chamber, it is burnt up and cools nothing.
While the O2 sensor is cold/cool and is heating up on first start, the ECU doesn't read any of the sensors and is in open loop which means it runs rich. My AFR meter is pegged at RICH during the first few seconds until the sensor heats up and then moves from open to closed loop and then the ECU starts receiving info from the sensors. But during this brief cold/cool period, the mix is rich. After it reaches the correct temp, then the ECU starts to lean out the mix and the AFR meter starts to "hunt".

Currently I'm testing with water injection and hydroxy. Just started and looks like the result is not promising. I'm going to test for another tank then I can conclude if my theory works or not.

Regards,
Kumaran
(Knowledge without action is useless, action without knowledge is foolish)
08-25-2009 08:21 AM
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martinruf Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Aquatune
(08-23-2009 07:54 AM)kumaran Wrote:  By injecting water into combustion chamber, it helps to cool down O2 sensor. When O2 cold, it sends signal nearly 0V to ECU and ECU limits fuel entering into combustion chamber.

It will never be cold.
If 3-5 ms after combustion in the engine exhaust passes through the O2 sensor, it is still hot (600-900 ° C).
I thought reading that it is cooler, at about 50 ° C with HHO, or water injection.

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08-26-2009 04:03 AM
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