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BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
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255KCamry Offline
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Post: #1
BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
HELLO ALL, BEEN DOING SOME EXPERIEMENTING WITH THE MODIFIED SMACKS BOOSTER AND TRYING TO LOWER THE HEAT OUTPUT BY NON-TRADITIONAL MEANS. USING 316 SS PLATES JUST SEEMED A LITTLE NON-CONDUCTIVE, BUT SO FAR IT'S THE BEST.

I HAVE MADE THIS THREAD SO OTHERS (IF YOU'VE BEEN CURIOUS) DON'T WASTE TIME OR MONEY SEEKING OUT DIFFERENT PLATE MATERIALS.

I FIRST STARTED WITH DIFFERENT ELECTROLYTES - KOH, NaOH, NaHCO3 (BAKING SODA) AND A FEW OTHERS THAT I THOUGHT MAY HAVE WORKED.
KOH IS THE MOST CONDUCTIVE, CHEAPEST, AND WON'T EAT YOUR SKIN AS BAD AS NaOH WILL. ALTHOUGH YOU CAN'T WALK INTO A STORE AND GET IT, IT'S AVAILABLE ONLINE FOR RELATIVELY CHEAP.

I KEPT MOLAR CONCENTRATIONS THE SAME AND MEASURED GAS OUTPUT VS HEAT GENERATED VS AMP DRAW USING 316 SS ELECTRODES - KOH IS THE WINNER!

ONTO THE ELECTRODES...

MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS TUNGSTEN METAL, WHICH YOU CAN GET IN PLATE FORM. I CUT IT WITH A PAIR OF SNIPS, BUT THE METAL KIND OF HALF-CUT, HALF-CRACKED; BUT IT WAS OK FOR TESTING PURPOSES. TUNGSTEN IS HARD, THE EIGHTH OR NINTH (I FORGET) BEST ELECTRICAL CONDUCTOR, AND CORROSION RESISTANT UP TO THOUSANDS OF DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. WHAT I FOUND OUT WAS THAT CONDUCTANCE THROUGH SOLUTION WAS AMAZING, BUT I WAS NOT GETTING ANY OXYGEN BUBBLES!!! HMMM....

AFTER WEIGHING THE ELECTRODES BEFORE AND AFTER APPLYING 35 TO 45 AMPS FROM A DC BATTERY CHARGER, IT BECAME APPARENT THAT THE OXYGEN WAS INDEED COMBINING WITH THE TUNGSTEN TO MAKE EITHER WO3 OR SOME KIND OF HYDROXIDE. THAT COMPOUND WAS IN TURN DISSOLVING INTO THE KOH SOLUTION....CROSS OUT TUNGSTEN!!!!

THEN CAME A COBALT-TUNGSTEN-MOYBDENUM-NICKEL ALLOY USED IN JET ENGINE TURBINE BLADES. THE THOUGHT HERE WAS THAT THIS MATERIAL SEES SERVICE TEMPERATURES UP TO 3000 DEG F AND THAT IT NOT BEING A PURE SUBSTANCE, OXYGEN WOULD HAVE TROUBLE FINDING A SPOT TO COMBINE WITH THE METAL ATOMS TO MAKE AN OXIDE IN SOLUTION. AGAIN, I WEIGHED BOTH PLATES BEFORE AND AFTER APPLYING THE SUPER-LOAD OF 35 TO 45 AMPS FOR ABOUT 20 MINUTES. THE RESULT WAS GOOD - NO CHANGE IN WEIGHT AFTER THE SUICIDAL CURRENT WAS RAN THROUGH SOLUTION, AND HEAT GENERATION WAS LOWER THAN THAT OF AN IDENTICAL-SIZED PLATE OF 316 SS WITH THE SAME AMP DRAW AND VOLUME OF HHO GENERATED. HOWEVER, THE COST OF THE MATERIAL IS ABOUT $20 PER POUND, AND I FOUND THAT DRILLING THIS STUFF REQUIRES A DAMN PLASMA CUTTER THAT I DON'T HAVE.

I THINK THIS MATERIAL IS A HASTELLOY TYPE, BUT I COULD NOT REFERENCE ANY NUMBERS THAT WERE ON THE PLATES TO AN EXACT CHEMICAL MAKEUP.

NEXT ON THE LIST WAS .999 FINE SILVER HAMMERED OUT INTO A 2 X 2 PLATE, AND I HAD TO RECALCULATE THE SURFACE AREA AS OPPOSED TO THE NORMAL 4.5 X 3.5 INCH 316 SS PLATES. BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERED SINCE THE Ag PLATES QUICKLY TURNED BLACK, WHICH IS INDICATIVE OF AgO. BOOOO!!!!!!

THE FINAL MATERIAL I TESTED WAS A PIECE OF PURE ZIRCONIUM PLATE THAT WAS 4 X 2 X .118 INCHES. BUT IT QUICKLY TURNED BLUE IN SOLUTION, SO Zr IS NOW RULED OUT.

IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, THE JET ENGINE TURBINE BLADE MATERIAL IS MORE THAN LIKELY SUPERIOR TO USING 316 SS PLATES, BUT IS COST PROHIBITIVE AND DIFFICULT TO MACHINE UNLESS YOU HAVE A PLASMA CUTTER OR LASER. HEAT GNERATION IS A BYPRODUCT OF MAKING H2 AND 02 GASES FROM WATER, AND ANYTHING THAT WILL LOWER THE OPERATING CURRENT SHOULD REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF HEAT GENERATED AND MAKE AN HHO GENERATOR MORE EFFICIENT.

I STILL HAVE NOT TRIED PLATINUM, GOLD, RHENIUM, RHODIUM, RUTHENIUM, IRIDIUM, OSMIUM, OR PALLADIUM FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. THESE METALS ARE THE MOST RESISTANT TO OXIDATION AND HAVE THE HIGHEST MELTING POINTS (NOT COUNTING GOLD), WHICH SUGGESTS EXTRAORDINARY ATOMIC BONDS AND RESISTANCE TO OXIDATION.

ANOTHER GOOD PROSPECT WOULD BE TUNGSTEN CARBIDE, EITHER WC OR W2C. THIS IS USED IN SEVERE-DUTY APPLICATIONS SUCH AS MINING BITS, (THE BEST) DRILL BITS, AND HIGH-TEMPERATURE HIGH-SHOCK APPLICATIONS. THIS MATERIAL CONDUCTS ELECTRICITY AT LEAST TWICE AS WELL AS STAINLESS STEEL, AND IT BEING A COMPOUND WOULD HAVE A TOUGHER TIME FINDING A BINDING SITE FOR AN O- ION DUE TO THE FACT THAT CARBON IS ALREADY FILLING THE HOLES....FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE IN ALTERNATIVE (CHEAP) ELECTRODE MATERIAL, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

MORE ON MY 1996 CAMRY RESULTS AFTER I PURCHASE AN EFIE!!!
11-12-2008 09:25 PM
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HALS-GUNSMITHING Offline
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Post: #2
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
255KCamry Wrote:HELLO ALL, BEEN DOING SOME EXPERIEMENTING WITH THE MODIFIED SMACKS BOOSTER AND TRYING TO LOWER THE HEAT OUTPUT BY NON-TRADITIONAL MEANS. USING 316 SS PLATES JUST SEEMED A LITTLE NON-CONDUCTIVE, BUT SO FAR IT'S THE BEST.

I HAVE MADE THIS THREAD SO OTHERS (IF YOU'VE BEEN CURIOUS) DON'T WASTE TIME OR MONEY SEEKING OUT DIFFERENT PLATE MATERIALS.

I FIRST STARTED WITH DIFFERENT ELECTROLYTES - KOH, NaOH, NaHCO3 (BAKING SODA) AND A FEW OTHERS THAT I THOUGHT MAY HAVE WORKED.
KOH IS THE MOST CONDUCTIVE, CHEAPEST, AND WON'T EAT YOUR SKIN AS BAD AS NaOH WILL. ALTHOUGH YOU CAN'T WALK INTO A STORE AND GET IT, IT'S AVAILABLE ONLINE FOR RELATIVELY CHEAP.

I KEPT MOLAR CONCENTRATIONS THE SAME AND MEASURED GAS OUTPUT VS HEAT GENERATED VS AMP DRAW USING 316 SS ELECTRODES - KOH IS THE WINNER!

ONTO THE ELECTRODES...

MY FIRST THOUGHT WAS TUNGSTEN METAL, WHICH YOU CAN GET IN PLATE FORM. I CUT IT WITH A PAIR OF SNIPS, BUT THE METAL KIND OF HALF-CUT, HALF-CRACKED; BUT IT WAS OK FOR TESTING PURPOSES. TUNGSTEN IS HARD, THE EIGHTH OR NINTH (I FORGET) BEST ELECTRICAL CONDUCTOR, AND CORROSION RESISTANT UP TO THOUSANDS OF DEGREES FAHRENHEIT. WHAT I FOUND OUT WAS THAT CONDUCTANCE THROUGH SOLUTION WAS AMAZING, BUT I WAS NOT GETTING ANY OXYGEN BUBBLES!!! HMMM....

AFTER WEIGHING THE ELECTRODES BEFORE AND AFTER APPLYING 35 TO 45 AMPS FROM A DC BATTERY CHARGER, IT BECAME APPARENT THAT THE OXYGEN WAS INDEED COMBINING WITH THE TUNGSTEN TO MAKE EITHER WO3 OR SOME KIND OF HYDROXIDE. THAT COMPOUND WAS IN TURN DISSOLVING INTO THE KOH SOLUTION....CROSS OUT TUNGSTEN!!!!

THEN CAME A COBALT-TUNGSTEN-MOYBDENUM-NICKEL ALLOY USED IN JET ENGINE TURBINE BLADES. THE THOUGHT HERE WAS THAT THIS MATERIAL SEES SERVICE TEMPERATURES UP TO 3000 DEG F AND THAT IT NOT BEING A PURE SUBSTANCE, OXYGEN WOULD HAVE TROUBLE FINDING A SPOT TO COMBINE WITH THE METAL ATOMS TO MAKE AN OXIDE IN SOLUTION. AGAIN, I WEIGHED BOTH PLATES BEFORE AND AFTER APPLYING THE SUPER-LOAD OF 35 TO 45 AMPS FOR ABOUT 20 MINUTES. THE RESULT WAS GOOD - NO CHANGE IN WEIGHT AFTER THE SUICIDAL CURRENT WAS RAN THROUGH SOLUTION, AND HEAT GENERATION WAS LOWER THAN THAT OF AN IDENTICAL-SIZED PLATE OF 316 SS WITH THE SAME AMP DRAW AND VOLUME OF HHO GENERATED. HOWEVER, THE COST OF THE MATERIAL IS ABOUT $20 PER POUND, AND I FOUND THAT DRILLING THIS STUFF REQUIRES A DAMN PLASMA CUTTER THAT I DON'T HAVE.

I THINK THIS MATERIAL IS A HASTELLOY TYPE, BUT I COULD NOT REFERENCE ANY NUMBERS THAT WERE ON THE PLATES TO AN EXACT CHEMICAL MAKEUP.

NEXT ON THE LIST WAS .999 FINE SILVER HAMMERED OUT INTO A 2 X 2 PLATE, AND I HAD TO RECALCULATE THE SURFACE AREA AS OPPOSED TO THE NORMAL 4.5 X 3.5 INCH 316 SS PLATES. BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERED SINCE THE Ag PLATES QUICKLY TURNED BLACK, WHICH IS INDICATIVE OF AgO. BOOOO!!!!!!

THE FINAL MATERIAL I TESTED WAS A PIECE OF PURE ZIRCONIUM PLATE THAT WAS 4 X 2 X .118 INCHES. BUT IT QUICKLY TURNED BLUE IN SOLUTION, SO Zr IS NOW RULED OUT.

IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS, THE JET ENGINE TURBINE BLADE MATERIAL IS MORE THAN LIKELY SUPERIOR TO USING 316 SS PLATES, BUT IS COST PROHIBITIVE AND DIFFICULT TO MACHINE UNLESS YOU HAVE A PLASMA CUTTER OR LASER. HEAT GNERATION IS A BYPRODUCT OF MAKING H2 AND 02 GASES FROM WATER, AND ANYTHING THAT WILL LOWER THE OPERATING CURRENT SHOULD REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF HEAT GENERATED AND MAKE AN HHO GENERATOR MORE EFFICIENT.

I STILL HAVE NOT TRIED PLATINUM, GOLD, RHENIUM, RHODIUM, RUTHENIUM, IRIDIUM, OSMIUM, OR PALLADIUM FOR OBVIOUS REASONS. THESE METALS ARE THE MOST RESISTANT TO OXIDATION AND HAVE THE HIGHEST MELTING POINTS (NOT COUNTING GOLD), WHICH SUGGESTS EXTRAORDINARY ATOMIC BONDS AND RESISTANCE TO OXIDATION.

ANOTHER GOOD PROSPECT WOULD BE TUNGSTEN CARBIDE, EITHER WC OR W2C. THIS IS USED IN SEVERE-DUTY APPLICATIONS SUCH AS MINING BITS, (THE BEST) DRILL BITS, AND HIGH-TEMPERATURE HIGH-SHOCK APPLICATIONS. THIS MATERIAL CONDUCTS ELECTRICITY AT LEAST TWICE AS WELL AS STAINLESS STEEL, AND IT BEING A COMPOUND WOULD HAVE A TOUGHER TIME FINDING A BINDING SITE FOR AN O- ION DUE TO THE FACT THAT CARBON IS ALREADY FILLING THE HOLES....FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE IN ALTERNATIVE (CHEAP) ELECTRODE MATERIAL, I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM YOU.

MORE ON MY 1996 CAMRY RESULTS AFTER I PURCHASE AN EFIE!!!

What about Monel?

1999 F150 4.6L 5 speed manual 4x4 ext. cab
start @ 15mpg best @ 17mpg with HHO into vacum only
No EFIE's yet
11-12-2008 09:55 PM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #3
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
lead plates -
monel works well. although not better. its just longer lasting. which is good, but price wise doesnt make sense.
I was surprised how well lead really is. In fact, it works so well, in intial testing for me, that im doing more with it.
11-13-2008 01:00 AM
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jkbanman Offline
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Post: #4
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
What if a person took your stainless plates and applied a heavy gold plating. The base material probably would need not to be stainless if it was gold plated as pure gold will not oxidize. Its melting point is more than high enough for this application (1800f or so) and electrical conductance is second to none. My only concern would be that given that the gold is in an acidic solution is may want to dissolve into solution.

But again this is probably cost prohibitive, but the plates should almost then last forever.
(This post was last modified: 11-13-2008 06:09 AM by jkbanman.)
11-13-2008 06:08 AM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #5
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
Great work 255k! Very valuable info for the forum. Thanks.
11-13-2008 06:18 AM
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realtyroy Offline
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Post: #6
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
Nice job!
Very interesting reading. I have been playing around a little with using Nickel. Actually I have quite a few nickel welding rods that I have been working with and they seem to hold up well.
Have you done any testing with nickel?

Keep up the good work!

RealtyRoy-HHO Scambuster
http://pmgen.com/hhoscambusters/

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11-13-2008 07:20 AM
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hydrotinkerer Offline
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Post: #7
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
There is a guy on another forum that swears by 430ss. I don't know anything about 430ss but has anyone used it?
11-13-2008 01:34 PM
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255KCamry Offline
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Post: #8
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
hydrotinkerer Wrote:There is a guy on another forum that swears by 430ss. I don't know anything about 430ss but has anyone used it?

430 STAINLESS HAS 16-18% Cr, 10-12% Ni CONTENT WITH ALSO 1% Mn WITH THE BALANCE BEING MOSTLY IRON, TRACE AMOUNTS OF CARBON, SILICON, AND OCCASIONALLY PHOSPHORUS AND OTHER ELEMENTS DEPENDING ON THE APPLICATION

316 STAINLESS IS COMPRISED OF 16-18.5% Cr, 10-14% Ni, 2-3% Mo, AND THE REST BEING MOSTLY IRON WITH TRACE AMOUNTS OF MANAGANESE, CARBON, PHOSPHORUS, AND SILICON.

THERE ARE SUBDIVISIONS OF 430 AND 316 SS - "L" WHICH IS THE LOW-CARBON ALLOY, AND "H" WHICH IS HIGH-CARBON. AS FAR AS I KNOW, I AM USING REGULAR OLD 316

I WILL ADD SOME RESISTIVITY TABLES FOR CERTAIN MATERIALS TO SHOW HOW SS STACKS UP (AND NON-CONDUCTS) TO OTHER METALS IN THE NEXT THREAD.
11-13-2008 02:18 PM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #9
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
255K, great post. I will add my findings.

Nickel is good for a base electrolyte. It is NOT good for an acidic electrolyte. I am using nickel in my test cell at home. Nickel is good for the cathode in an acidic electrolyte and is great for hydrogen evolution.

Another material for good oxygen evolution is Titanium coated with some of the precious metals you mentioned. This is more expensive than stainless, but much less than using solid precious metals. In fact, just today I made a Ruthenium coated titanium electrode. Since I ran out of Ruthenium, I am buying some more from Alfa Aesar at $100 for 2g. Iridium coated titanium has been tested to be much better over a longer time than with the Ruthenium coating. In fact, there is an Iridium plated titanium supplier that you can just order it from. Iridium is around $100 for 1g. If you coat it yourself, you will need an oven that gets over 400C.

I would say that 316 stainless is the best overall option. It might degrade more than the precious stuff, and have lower conductivity, and have lower gas production compared to the precious metals, but, when you factor in price, availability, and how well it does perform, it is superior. Nickel would be my choice if I wanted to spend a little more and only used a base electrolyte. Remember, the goal is to save money on gas. If I wanted to spend 20k to get 50mpg, I would buy a Prius.

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11-20-2008 01:31 PM
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alpha-dog Offline
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Post: #10
RE: BETTER ELECTRODE MATERIAL THAN 316 SS?
How bad of an idea would laminating copper and stainless steel together and use the ss side as the anode.
Russ
11-24-2008 07:15 PM
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