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Bubbler sucking dry
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
(06-21-2011 09:17 AM)David Gonzales Wrote:  I had built two hydrolizers (different styles) and the one I initially got going had way to many "powered plates". By that I mean I had 12 volts going to these plates with way to few nuetral plates.

I re-worked it so it now has only two positive and two negative, with seven nuetral plates between each positive and negative, and it still produces as much gas but does not get near as hot now.

It also does not pull as much electricity due to the added nuetral plates.
25 plates?
Does it look like this? -NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
if so that would require at least 15 Volts to work

if it were me, I'd break it down like this:

-NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+
This would give me 2 volts/Cell at 12v & 2.23 volts/cell at 13.4V
and should produce 2.8 lpm at 15 amps using a 10% KOH & Distillate H20
it takes about 1.85 -2.0 volts/cell to break the H20 molecules
if I understood your design correctly, it only produces 1.5 volts/cell@12v

I am a Christian
06-26-2011 09:48 AM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
How do I know what is positive and which is negitive and Neutral? I did not build this unit....
[/quote]

Look to see which plates are connected to the positive or negative side of your battery to determine which is positive and which is negative. If they are NOT connected to either they are nuetral plates which STILL produce gas but (from what I understand) act more like resistors and drop the voltage down and also help control heat.
25 plates?
Does it look like this? -NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
if so that would require at least 15 Volts to work

if it were me, I'd break it down like this:

-NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+
This would give me 2 volts/Cell at 12v & 2.23 volts/cell at 13.4V
and should produce 2.8 lpm at 15 amps using a 10% KOH & Distillate H20
it takes about 1.85 -2.0 volts/cell to break the H20 molecules
if I understood your design correctly, it only produces 1.5 volts/cell@12v
[/quote]

Originally I had 19 plates in the one that has the big (3"x6") 316 plates. It was set up like: -n+n-n+n-n+n-n+n-n+ and used WAY to much juice...even with a real, real low concentration of NaOH it would go into a runaway mode and just start producing lots of steam. This was before I understood the nuetral plates.

I now have it set up like this: +nnnnnnn--nnnnnnn+ real similar to the Smack's booster (but I used 7 nuetrals where I think he used 6?)

My other unit (which I am thinking to switch on when on the freeway) is configured the same but made with 304 stainless wallplates just like the Smack's although I used seven nuetrals in it as well.

I also wrapped both with motorcycle inner tube pieces cut into about 2 inch wide strips like big wide rubberbands so they can be stretched and placed over/around the plates. The bottoms and tops are still open to allow water and gas to flow in and out.

My bolts through the top ABS screw cap in the smaller unit seem to still be getting hotter than I like (I think due to the small diameter #10 screws I mounted through the cap to mount the plates) so may have to bump them up to quarter inch. Hopefully that will be large enough to flow more electricty without getting as warm.

On the big unit I am still experimenting with 10 gage copper wires and gold/tin plated copper base metal spade connectors to see if/how they will stand up to the NaOH as the same stainless thru bolts for it were getting hot enough to melt into the abs cap. I now have the plates hung with nylon strap and the current carrying wires go down into the electrolite to connect with the +/- plates. So far it seems to be holding up pretty well but NaOH is pretty corrosive so still monitering with that.

The motor sure seems to be running a lot crisper from what I can tell just driving around town though! Real curious to get it out and log some highway miles on it.
(This post was last modified: 07-05-2011 08:09 AM by David Gonzales.)
07-05-2011 07:40 AM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
(07-05-2011 07:40 AM)David Gonzales Wrote:  How do I know what is positive and which is negitive and Neutral? I did not build this unit....

Look to see which plates are connected to the positive or negative side of your battery to determine which is positive and which is negative. If they are NOT connected to either they are nuetral plates which STILL produce gas but (from what I understand) act more like resistors and drop the voltage down and also help control heat.
25 plates?
Does it look like this? -NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
if so that would require at least 15 Volts to work

if it were me, I'd break it down like this:

-NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+
This would give me 2 volts/Cell at 12v & 2.23 volts/cell at 13.4V
and should produce 2.8 lpm at 15 amps using a 10% KOH & Distillate H20
it takes about 1.85 -2.0 volts/cell to break the H20 molecules
if I understood your design correctly, it only produces 1.5 volts/cell@12v
[/quote]

Originally I had 19 plates in the one that has the big (3"x6") 316 plates. It was set up like: -n+n-n+n-n+n-n+n-n+ and used WAY to much juice...even with a real, real low concentration of NaOH it would go into a runaway mode and just start producing lots of steam. This was before I understood the nuetral plates.

I now have it set up like this: +nnnnnnn--nnnnnnn+ real similar to the Smack's booster (but I used 7 nuetrals where I think he used 6?)

[/quote]

Now you learning. That original configuration you had used 4 volts/cell when you connect to a 12V source. Way too hot.

now you are drawing 1.5 volts /cell which is not enough for a 12V source

If you have the time, remove 2 neutrals from each stack:

-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-

That would give you 2 volts/cell for 12V to 2.3 volts/cell for 13.8V

at 50 deg C.

Also, never connect to the PCV valve line cause if your motor is running and the HHO system is turned off, you will suck all your electrolyte into your intake manifold and it can blow right by those plastic check valves.

Alway inject in the air intake.

but remember, I am a newbie at HHO technology.

I am a Christian
(This post was last modified: 07-07-2011 08:00 PM by amos33.)
07-07-2011 07:35 PM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
[/quote]

Now you learning. That original configuration you had used 4 volts/cell when you connect to a 12V source. Way too hot.

now you are drawing 1.5 volts /cell which is not enough for a 12V source

If you have the time, remove 2 neutrals from each stack:

-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-

That would give you 2 volts/cell for 12V to 2.3 volts/cell for 13.8V

at 50 deg C.

Also, never connect to the PCV valve line cause if your motor is running and the HHO system is turned off, you will suck all your electrolyte into your intake manifold and it can blow right by those plastic check valves.

Alway inject in the air intake.

but remember, I am a newbie at HHO technology.
[/quote]

I am also a newbie to HHO. Been looking at it for a couple years and actually started on my first cell about that long ago just never did have the time to really get with the program till lately.

A good fresh battery SHOULD have 13.2 volts as I understand it. (2.2 per cell times six cells) Usually when the motor and alternator are running and if all is working well it should keep the battery around 14 volts or so. That is why I went with seven nuetrals. ( I think Smack's even mentioned using seven nuetrals at one point.)

I know I should physically check and see what the voltage is across my plates but gas production is real good so I am more interested in finding out if it does indeed up my mileage and if it is worth the effort to continue pouring time into this.

I am STILL slowly uping the amount of NaOH in the solution as I seem to be drawing just a little low (about 14 amps and I would like 20 when hot). Seems to be a fine line in the mix, and once you pass it it draws a bunch more amps and then I have to remix the electrolite.

My hydrolizer gets considearably warmer right now but it is close to 100 degrees ambient here most every day so I expect it to run a little hot, especially in that engine compartment.

Not sure what you mean about the PCV line, I do not touch that....my gas supply is connected just inside the air cleaner housing right before the air cleaner so I can sort of use the air cleaner as an added flame supressor.
07-11-2011 07:33 AM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
I am also a newbie to HHO. Been looking at it for a couple years and actually started on my first cell about that long ago just never did have the time to really get with the program till lately.

A good fresh battery SHOULD have 13.2 volts as I understand it. (2.2 per cell times six cells) Usually when the motor and alternator are running and if all is working well it should keep the battery around 14 volts or so. That is why I went with seven nuetrals. ( I think Smack's even mentioned using seven nuetrals at one point.)

I know I should physically check and see what the voltage is across my plates but gas production is real good so I am more interested in finding out if it does indeed up my mileage and if it is worth the effort to continue pouring time into this.

I am STILL slowly uping the amount of NaOH in the solution as I seem to be drawing just a little low (about 14 amps and I would like 20 when hot). Seems to be a fine line in the mix, and once you pass it it draws a bunch more amps and then I have to remix the electrolite.

My hydrolizer gets considearably warmer right now but it is close to 100 degrees ambient here most every day so I expect it to run a little hot, especially in that engine compartment.

Not sure what you mean about the PCV line, I do not touch that....my gas supply is connected just inside the air cleaner housing right before the air cleaner so I can sort of use the air cleaner as an added flame supressor.
[/quote]

Thanks David, you way ahead of me.

If I may suggest I would continue at 14 amps using the mix that got you there. With that configuration of 7 cells you should be getting about 2 lpm. Try waiting until you are at constant RPM in cruise control before engaging your system like say 60-65 mph. If you are creating pure OxyHydrogen you should see 30% or better improvement in your mpgs.

OxyHydrogen works best at constant RPM and 2 lpm should be max production for any vehicle. I do believe any production above 2 lpm could damage your engine, but then I am a newbi. Thanks for that report David.

I am a Christian
07-15-2011 05:37 AM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
Amos33,

I have read all sorts of different info on what is the ideal amount of gas to produce. I recently saw one saying one liter per roughly 1000 cc's of engine displacement. THAT is quite a bit. Way more than mine is currently producing.

I used to worked for a National Laboratory that used to do all sorts of odd, cool, strange, and sometimes weird testing in all sorts of different areas. They once took and drilled several holes in a spark plug and installed fiber optic cabels/wires so they could view, and high speed film what was happening inside an internal combustion engine at speed.

They put the results in one of their monthly newspapers and it stuck with me (even though it was about 15-20 years back!).

Seems they found during testing that even "TRACE" amounts of hydrogen in an internal combustion motor (added to the mix with ANY internal combustion fuel) would significantly enhance and speed up the flame front for a quicker burning charge, increasing power, performance, and mileage, as well as lower emissions to unbelievable low levels.

They did not follow up on the results to much, but their inital testing sure did leave a lot of questions and possabilities mulling around in my mind.

Anyway, I have my hydrolizer operational (FINALLY) and do intend to see what it can do. I already notice a huge differance in how the vehicle runs. It is smoother running at all speeds, seems to really accelerate nicely, but I still do not see how the hydrolizer can generate enough gas once the vehicle is running down the highway sucking in large amounts of fuel/air to make that big a differance.

Guess that is where I will really find out how low of an amount "trace" amounts are? I could sit down and calculate the volume of air moving through this motor at speed but that would probably just lead me to quit before I thorougly test it out! Besides it gives me a reason for more road trips!

It does not seem to me that two litres per minute at idle would be enough to damage an engine, not even on a small 4 cylinder motor.

You could figure rougly 1000 rpm at idle would work out to be 500 rpm's (4 stroke motor cylinders only fill with fuel /air every two revolutions) x 4 cylinders (depending on the bore and stroke) would be 2000. 2000 divided into two liters of hydroxy gas and you can see what a small amount of gas that is...and that is at idle.

Once you get a v-8 or big six the volume of fuel/air goes up even further and the amount of gas you are using gets smaller for each cylinder charge, especially at speed/higher rpm's.

That is why I am thinking of putting my second unit on the vehicle and to switch it on once on the highway. The other unit will pretty much run full time.
07-18-2011 01:25 PM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
(07-18-2011 01:25 PM)David Gonzales Wrote:  Amos33,

I have read all sorts of different info on what is the ideal amount of gas to produce. I recently saw one saying one liter per roughly 1000 cc's of engine displacement. THAT is quite a bit. Way more than mine is currently producing.

I used to worked for a National Laboratory that used to do all sorts of odd, cool, strange, and sometimes weird testing in all sorts of different areas. They once took and drilled several holes in a spark plug and installed fiber optic cabels/wires so they could view, and high speed film what was happening inside an internal combustion engine at speed.

They put the results in one of their monthly newspapers and it stuck with me (even though it was about 15-20 years back!).

Seems they found during testing that even "TRACE" amounts of hydrogen in an internal combustion motor (added to the mix with ANY internal combustion fuel) would significantly enhance and speed up the flame front for a quicker burning charge, increasing power, performance, and mileage, as well as lower emissions to unbelievable low levels.

They did not follow up on the results to much, but their inital testing sure did leave a lot of questions and possabilities mulling around in my mind.

Anyway, I have my hydrolizer operational (FINALLY) and do intend to see what it can do. I already notice a huge differance in how the vehicle runs. It is smoother running at all speeds, seems to really accelerate nicely, but I still do not see how the hydrolizer can generate enough gas once the vehicle is running down the highway sucking in large amounts of fuel/air to make that big a differance.

Guess that is where I will really find out how low of an amount "trace" amounts are? I could sit down and calculate the volume of air moving through this motor at speed but that would probably just lead me to quit before I thorougly test it out! Besides it gives me a reason for more road trips!

It does not seem to me that two litres per minute at idle would be enough to damage an engine, not even on a small 4 cylinder motor.

You could figure rougly 1000 rpm at idle would work out to be 500 rpm's (4 stroke motor cylinders only fill with fuel /air every two revolutions) x 4 cylinders (depending on the bore and stroke) would be 2000. 2000 divided into two liters of hydroxy gas and you can see what a small amount of gas that is...and that is at idle.

Once you get a v-8 or big six the volume of fuel/air goes up even further and the amount of gas you are using gets smaller for each cylinder charge, especially at speed/higher rpm's.

That is why I am thinking of putting my second unit on the vehicle and to switch it on once on the highway. The other unit will pretty much run full time.

You are a wise man David. The only benefit we can get from OxyHydrogen is when we are at constant rpm. I only turn mine on when I am in cruise control and the results are excellent.

Now concerning two units...

I have two dry cells in my system. One is small and one is large. Small one creates the environment so big one can run optimally then small one shuts down and the big one does his job and that is cruising down them long straight Texas roads.

I posted a short video on youtube if you are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXYmiqnWRfw

I like your way of thinking David, you defenitly on course.

I am a Christian
07-18-2011 05:44 PM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
I tried to open the video but it said it has been removed....bummer!

Why is it you say that we only receive benefits while at a constant load/speed?

If the added gas is indeed speeding up the flame front, which in turn makes a better, quicker, and more complete burn in the combustion chamber, which in turn also reduces emmissions. Then it would stand to reason that it does this at ALL speeds and rpm's. In my mind it would seem to be better at lower speeds too, especially since there is more or higher amounts of hydrogen gas per cylinder filling at slower speeds. (Although there probably is an optimum mix of fuel/air/hydrogen, but how we find that is another matter.....LOTS of testing I guess?)

I have been using mine primarily around town as I check it out and log some hours to make sure it is really road worthy. It sure does seem to make the motor run a little stronger as well as smoother. I have tried it by switching it off occassionally just to see if I can see a differance, and although small you actually can feel and hear it as well.
07-22-2011 10:54 AM
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amos33 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
(07-22-2011 10:54 AM)David Gonzales Wrote:  I tried to open the video but it said it has been removed....bummer!

Why is it you say that we only receive benefits while at a constant load/speed?

If the added gas is indeed speeding up the flame front, which in turn makes a better, quicker, and more complete burn in the combustion chamber, which in turn also reduces emmissions. Then it would stand to reason that it does this at ALL speeds and rpm's. In my mind it would seem to be better at lower speeds too, especially since there is more or higher amounts of hydrogen gas per cylinder filling at slower speeds. (Although there probably is an optimum mix of fuel/air/hydrogen, but how we find that is another matter.....LOTS of testing I guess?)

I have been using mine primarily around town as I check it out and log some hours to make sure it is really road worthy. It sure does seem to make the motor run a little stronger as well as smoother. I have tried it by switching it off occassionally just to see if I can see a differance, and although small you actually can feel and hear it as well.

David, I only use mine at cruising speed and I require it produce 2 lpm and I also run it at 50 deg. C and higher. The higher the temperature the less volts you draw. I will try to repost that video. Ok here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxtIpTgTbyM

cheers

I am a Christian
07-22-2011 07:33 PM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Bubbler sucking dry
Video worked!

That looks like a pretty nice setup and appears to really push out the gas from what I could see in the output lines. I like the lucite ends so you can see what is going on too.

At one point you can see the fluid level come up fast in the right unit, and then it appears the left unit kicks on. Does it cycle back and forth between units or is something else going on there?
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2011 06:30 AM by David Gonzales.)
07-26-2011 06:29 AM
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