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Car cell project. **NEW PICS**
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #1
Car cell project. **NEW PICS**
Okay I'm making a cell for my car and as well for a few friends to get cheaper price on plate cuts.

It's based on the same principle as my welding cell, like the Sid cell with the bolts going through plates and gaskets. 180mmx180mm plate size, 10mm gasket border so 160x160 of active surface.

Regarding I will be installing it on my 96 Cherokee 4L engine "High output", I may need more than 2LPM. So I was thinking of trying to increase the efficiency by loosing the output and eq holes in the plates and using 6mm polypropylene gaskets with 2 fittings on each one like on the smacktanium. I will not be using any rubber, simply because the position of the bolts will allow me to get the thing real tight.

Question 1: How much more efficiency will I get by losing the holes?

Question 2: With a 6mm gap between the plates, will I need too much catalyst?

I have joined the jpgs of the plates with the holes.
Thanks.


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>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 06-20-2010 02:42 AM by Zipstor.)
05-19-2010 01:57 AM
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ke6gwf Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Car cell project.
I look forward to your success with HHO on the 4.0, as I am actively searching for a Jeep Grand Cherokee with the 4.0 as we speak! Finding lots of good deals on 5.2's, but I want to start with base mileage of 20 MPG, not 13 MPG...

My understanding is that eliminating the holes will increase your efficiency by eliminating the short-circuiting through the holes, but will not increase output noticeably. Any output increase should be proportional to the increased effective plate size that would otherwise be holes.

I would also avoid the wide ~1/4" (6mm) spacing, as it seems likely to lower efficiency, although I am not as certain on this!

Output is a factor of size of electrode area (plus any catalyst action if prepared according to Boyce's directions). If you need more output, you need a bigger cell! (or more of them)


I would also wonder how much HHO you are going to be able to use on that engine, since you will be fighting the electronics. Do you know if it will gain benefits from 4LPM? (this is a question I need answered as well!) Smile


Ben~
05-19-2010 07:44 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Car cell project.
(05-19-2010 01:57 AM)Zipstor Wrote:  Question 1: How much more efficiency will I get by losing the holes?

Question 2: With a 6mm gap between the plates, will I need too much catalyst?

I have joined the jpgs of the plates with the holes.
Thanks.

1. Already answered, more-or-less, by ke6gwf

2. IMHO 6mm is way too much space. Most opt for 1.5-2mm. Also, I think you are confusing catalyst with electrolyte.
That said, resistance is proportional to distance.
You increase the distance between your plates, the internal resistance per cell increases accordingly, therebye reducing your current.
The opposite is also true.
You are left with the option of varying your electrolyte strength to maintain your maximum current requirement. Note that a PWM can be used to vary the current, from zero up to the maximum possible.

BB has pointed out that conditioning of the generator, prior to use, builds a catalytic layer on the electrode surfaces. It has also been said that this layer helps with production volume.

I suspect also that this layer may also assist in increasing production of orthohydrogen, which is said to be of more use in that it causes a catalytic reaction in hydrocarbon fuel combustion giving increased power from same (NASA research), rather than parahydrogen, which apparently does not. (Again subject of NASA research.)

Quality, not quantity.

btw the formula for calculating resistance is

R = Rho*L/A
R = resistance in Ohms
Rho = temperature co-efficient of resistance for material (includes electrolyte, and plates - 2 calculations), varies with temperature.
L = thickness of material, or distance between your plates for electrolyte
A = surface area of material

There is a caveat. NaOH and KOH, most commonly used for electrolyte in HHO generators, are non-linear resistive substances, in that both of these reduce in resistance with increase in voltage, but in a non-linear fashion. Ohms law does not apply.

From this you no doubt will be able to work out that any calculation based on these variables, in even something as simple as an HHO generator, can very quickly become a complex problem
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2010 01:45 AM by benny.)
05-19-2010 11:37 AM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Car cell project.
Thanks for heads up Benny. But this is all theory stuff I know already. I was hoping that someone has experienced it on an actual setup. But I appreciate your effort.

The smacktanium has a huge space between plates and it lives out there...

So as per usual, I will have to do all the tests myself I suppose.

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2010 04:20 AM by Zipstor.)
05-20-2010 02:13 AM
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ke6gwf Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Car cell project.
(05-20-2010 02:13 AM)Zipstor Wrote:  Thanks for heads up Benny. But this is all theory stuff I know already. I was hoping that someone has experienced it on an actual setup. But I appreciate your effort.

The smacktanium has a huge space between plates and it lives out there...

So as per usual, I will have to do all the tests myself I suppose.

Just looking at the smacktanium, and I don't think you want to compare to it!

1. It uses Ti and MMO plates, which have different conductive properties than SS.

2. It is running about 3 volts per cell, probably requiring that much voltage to bridge the larger gap.

The higher the voltage required per cell, the fewer the number of cells you can run on the same voltage supply (it has 4 cells and puts out 0.5 LPM w/5x5" plates), therefore lower gas output and more power wasted as heat.

I would consider doing what Smack does for higher output needs. Stack 2 units end to end, wired in parallel. It will double your amps, but will double your output to the recommend amount for a 4.0.

I admit this is all theory, but if the theory says something isn't going to work, it can save a lot of failed experiments!


Edison said that Inventing is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
Tesla said that if Edison had been asked to find a needle in a haystack, he would have done so by carefully examining each and every piece of straw he removed to rule out any possibility it was a needle!
Tesla also said it was painful watching Edison try so many things that plainly wouldn't work (based on theory), while striving for the lightbulb.



Here's to balancing the percentages,
Ben~
05-20-2010 09:18 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Car cell project.
(05-20-2010 02:13 AM)Zipstor Wrote:  Thanks for heads up Benny. But this is all theory stuff I know already. I was hoping that someone has experienced it on an actual setup. But I appreciate your effort.

The smacktanium has a huge space between plates and it lives out there...

So as per usual, I will have to do all the tests myself I suppose.

Have a read through a few posts on this forum. Many on here, and on other associated forums, have tried various combinations of HHO generator structure, including plate spacing, varying electrolyte strength, PWM use, variable frequence, with varying results. More than a few of these variations have been reported on in some fashion. This should at least give you some indication of what to expect from a particular generator design.

You could use this information to deduce what just might be the best way to construct and use such a generator. To date, most of your attempts seem to be more-or-less copies of someone else' work

Let us know how you get on with your suck-and-see methodology. I look forward to reading your next 'What did I do wrong now', 'OH LOOK! Bubbles', or 'I've just discovered that Hydrogen burns' type of post.
I must admit I do miss your 'Look. Isn't this a pretty generator. What do you think of it' posts from way back. Hiding this practice behind Brownsgas dot com just isn't the same.

Theory is the stuff that helps make practice work!
Theory is occasionally derived from past practices which work.
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2010 12:00 PM by benny.)
05-20-2010 11:51 AM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Car cell project.
I copy and improve. There are so many inspiring works around, why ignoring them..

Will scour the archives a bit deeper.

I have one good improvement to add to the dry cell technology, will add it to my welding cell. Wait and you will see. But for now I have to find a way to make some more gaskets cheaply (I have quit my job and the money is not going so good) to increase plate number first, it might take a week or so.

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 05-20-2010 10:01 PM by Zipstor.)
05-20-2010 05:07 PM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Car cell project.
Ben, I might consider what you said about Edison. I have read the story on "war of currents".

Will stick with what works for now, normal gaskets and will modify it when I will have more cash to afford eventual errors.

>> http://brownsgas.com
05-20-2010 10:11 PM
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Llew Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Car cell project.
[quote='Zipstor' pid='31679' dateline='1274263077']
Okay I'm making a cell for my car and as well for a few friends to get cheaper price on plate cuts.

It's based on the same principle as my welding cell, like the Sid cell with the bolts going through plates and gaskets. 180mmx180mm plate size, 10mm gasket border so 160x160 of active surface.

Regarding I will be installing it on my 96 Cherokee 4L engine "High output", I may need more than 2LPM. So I was thinking of trying to increase the efficiency by loosing the output and eq holes in the plates and using 6mm polypropylene gaskets with 2 fittings on each one like on the smacktanium. I will not be using any rubber, simply because the position of the bolts will allow me to get the thing real tight.

Question 1: How much more efficiency will I get by losing the holes?

Question 2: With a 6mm gap between the plates, will I need too much catalyst?

I have joined the jpgs of the plates with the holes.
Thanks.
HI Zip,
Have you run any test yet ?? I wonder what the amperage draw will by, are you intending controling the amps by the electrolyte density ??. I find NaOH (caustic soda) seams to work best. But I have tried KOH ( which is a strong alkaline ) Potasium Hydroxide. seams to work as well. Wich do you prefer ,or do you use some other chemical.
I have just worked out that your plates are 70 sq inches, mine are
80 sq inches. do you agree.
Llew
05-21-2010 07:07 PM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Car cell project.
NaOH and KOH are equivalent in terms of reactivity. Some people reckon that KOH is more "clean", but here again it depends on the quality of the chem compound you can find in your area. The KOH I have here makes too much foam... I can get some perfect KOH but its $90 for 500g.

More sq inches per plate is better (to a limit) in a way that "the bigger the better" because it will heat less with the amp draw on the overall plate surface of the cell. However, 180x180 seems to be a maximized size for most cars, it fits just nice at the place of the "air box" or else. This 180x180 design can be increased via the plate number, this will increase the overall plate surface area via the width and not the height.

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 05-21-2010 07:33 PM by Zipstor.)
05-21-2010 07:31 PM
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