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Conclusions I have made in H2
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #1
Conclusions I have made in H2
I after researching and working on H2 for a while as well as participating in this forum have come to a few conclusions. I have read every post here as my situation limits my experimenting at this time. So I kind of have an "outsiders" perspective so to speak. I believe we are all on the right track.

1. It is harder to configure than HHO.
2. Not as much is needed for gains.
3. Units put out less volume as compared to HHO.
4. Units run hotter than HHO units for a number of reasons. I think the big culprit is cell resistance.

So I think in my opinion to think out side of the box we should look at the following. Since H2 units running at high amperages to get production tend to overheat, I think multiple separate cells should be used. Most people here get their units to run at about 4 amps. Hydro's will run at a max of 10 amps. As Gary has seen going up high like he has in amperage he has run into problems. The "coffee maker" produced well but got real hot. While his dry cell seems to be working well from what I read will it be dependable with the heat it generates. That is all of our goal to build a working unit that will have a dependable service life. Though Gary has what seems to be good production for a H2 only cell how long will it last? Thats why I think small multiple cell systems will work better. If amp draw is spread out over a number of cells. Production should go higher and heat should drop. I have been contemplating a "pod" type system, where small cells ( I think dry cells would be best for this) can be added and removed easily. With some type of quick connect. All in a rack type containment system. Two plates per cell with a separator membrane. You can plug and unplug cells as needed. Replacement of cells would be easy. With all the cells plumbed together you would have the combined output.

But in closing I think small , multi cell systems would be the best solution. Any opinions?
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2008 02:35 PM by jjb2888.)
10-29-2008 02:24 PM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Conclusions I have made in H2
jjb2888 Wrote:1. It is harder to configure than HHO.
Yep. But I have two cars. One Has 02 sensors and the other has AFR sensors. H2 seems like the only option to fit both.

jjb2888 Wrote:2. Not as much is needed for gains.
We don't have very much data to work with. Hydrodine is our data light in the darkness. He did get MPG gains with very very little output. In fact, I am counting on the small amounts to be true. So we should press on.
jjb2888 Wrote:3. Units put out less volume as compared to HHO.
Yes due to the spacing issues.
jjb2888 Wrote:4. Units run hotter than HHO units for a number of reasons. I think the big culprit is cell resistance.
Agreed. I also agree on the series based unit for multiple reasons. I have multiple problems in my case (other than the complete incompetance in electronics, automotive and craft skills). 1) My first vehical (Ford Windstar Mini van) has terrible space options. So I need to have small generators and I have no trunk to work with and I will not put this in the passanger compartment 2) I have to deal with freezing temps. High concentration of NaOH will help in this department and that requires a series system. 3) It has to be relatively easy to build. Based on what I have seen produced by members like Gary, Panama Rik, and others I have to be realistic about my craft skills and what my tool inventory can produce. Niether is on par to members like these. 4) It has to work on both an O2 and AFR car. Gee, hardly any hurdles here!
But I do do have a plan of attack, assuming I don't electrocute myself in the lab first. I have a prototype that is producing about 100 mlpm of HHO at about 5.5 amps (its the old bolt and SS washers surrounded by a tube model). I don't know if my mlpm is totally accurate because I keep springing leaks on my test container during tests. Yes, I know that amount of production is nothing. But these guts will fit into a 5 1/2h x 2 1/4 inch dia tube and I think I can possibly seperate the O2 from the H2 with this configuration. I am hoping to get the guts to produce 180 mlpm of HHO at about 12 amps. If the filtration system works, which is the last step of the testing, that means that one gen could produce about 115 mlpm of H2. Put four of them together in series (thats what I can fit under my hood without ripping everything apart) and we might really have something. Decent h2 output, high concentration of NaOH to stop freezing, easy to build, small for tight spaces under the hood, possible AFR compatibility, and parts easily obtained on line or at Lowes. But there are a lot of "BIG IFS" left in what I have to do. I'll post info only when I have something that appears to be working in a real lab test, otherwise I am just wasting the forum's time.
(This post was last modified: 10-30-2008 05:16 AM by gtkco.)
10-29-2008 06:59 PM
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Mavrick Offline
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RE: Conclusions I have made in H2
I also was looking into this until I realized one very important thing! I deal with this at work all the time and never connected the two! Wink Most importantly hydrogen imbrittlement. Now you ask what the heck is that. Well when you run large amounts of hydrogen over metal from electrolysis you have a phenomenon of micro fractures that occur. This weakens the metal over time until it fractures. Now our engines are made of metal. Specifically aluminum but it is really a magnesium aluminum mix that also has a fair amount of silicon mixed in to strengthen the metal castings. The hydrogen over time is going to weaken the castings and pistons to a degree. At some point they will fail from it. I think the HHO might be a better mix because it will burn cooler and retard this embrittlement. I need to look into this more and ask some of my metallurgy associate's what they think.

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11-09-2008 02:48 PM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Conclusions I have made in H2
Mavrick Wrote:I also was looking into this until I realized one very important thing! I deal with this at work all the time and never connected the two! Wink Most importantly hydrogen imbrittlement. Now you ask what the heck is that. Well when you run large amounts of hydrogen over metal from electrolysis you have a phenomenon of micro fractures that occur. This weakens the metal over time until it fractures. Now our engines are made of metal. Specifically aluminum but it is really a magnesium aluminum mix that also has a fair amount of silicon mixed in to strengthen the metal castings. The hydrogen over time is going to weaken the castings and pistons to a degree. At some point they will fail from it. I think the HHO might be a better mix because it will burn cooler and retard this embrittlement. I need to look into this more and ask some of my metallurgy associate's what they think.

The hydrogen embrittlement will happen with either. But with H2 only not as much hydrogen is needed. Rather because of the extra oxygen in HHO you need more to see gains. But with the amounts we are using their should be no problem. I would be more worried if we were running hydrogen as the only fuel source.
11-09-2008 05:40 PM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Conclusions I have made in H2
If my research is ok, embrittlement is more of an issue in the storage of hydrogen under pressure. It creeps into the metal over time weakening it. We are burning it up before it has a chance to do anything. I hope! Also, I think I remember reading something about aluminum being relatively immune to this problem.
11-09-2008 06:00 PM
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Mavrick Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Conclusions I have made in H2
One of the problems with the burning of hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is that of EMBRITTLEMENT. This occurs when the walls of the cylinder become saturated with hydrogen ions.

Corrosion Embrittlement - the embrittlement or loss of ductility of metals due to corrosion, usually as a result of intergranular attack which may not readily be visible.

As you can tell from this definition, the metal becomes fragile or porous and can shatter or fracture upon impact, thus damaging the engine. There is also the problem of excess heat.

As to embrittlement, the acidity of water has been found to have a great effect on the speed and the degree to which a material can be dissolved. Generally speaking, the acidity of a system is measured in units called the pH (hydogen concentration), ranging from 1 to 14. Neutral solutions have a pH of 7. A pH less than 7 means that the solution is ACIDIC and more than 7 means that it is ALKALINE.

When a metal becomes corroded because of the acidity of the solution in which it is immersed, it is due to an interchange of hydrogen ions in the solution with the atoms of the exposed metal. When the solution is liquid, the metal goes into the solution and hydrogen tends to plate out on the piece.

Once a hydrogen film has deposited on the exposed surfaces, the dissolving of the metal will cease. Oxygen plays an important part in this process, because the oxygen dissolved in water will react with the film of hydrogen to eliminate it by forming water which allows the corrosion process to proceed.

I found this doing a search. It seems some of what I thought was true. How much of it concerns the combustion chamber is out for the vote.

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11-09-2008 07:52 PM
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Liveguy Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Conclusions I have made in H2
I would like to add something and it may enlighten a few or not but without any HHO or H2 entering into a car, the engine has already two sources of Hydrogen entering into it namely, that of the hydro-carbon based fuel, petrol or diesel and the atmospheric hydrogen, although this is extremely low.

Oxegen is already entering into the combustion chamber from the atmosphere. When more Oxygen is added, we get a higher combustion rate and a more efficient burn, which should increase the engine temperatures but because of the water being produced and steam cleaning, the temperature is reduced in proportion to the level of entry gasses. With that, the extra oygen is picked up by the O2 sensors and therein lies our problem.

So by removing the oxygen and feeding in only the h2 we are increasing the hydrogen hit rate on the combustion chamber which should make a more efficient burn again. Embrittlement will probably happen but how long will the engine last under this hydrogen bombardment? If it is five years to ten years, then we have a problem, if it's 20-30 then not so much.

I'm not an expert obviously but is embrittlement really an issue?, in fact what is the issue with H2 systems if one uses multiple cells and places them in cool engine areas?
01-20-2009 07:27 AM
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