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Cross Cell
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poorman Offline
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Post: #1
Cross Cell
I have this cell installed on my truck and on my friends truck. It really produces lots of HHO, without using a lot of amperage and stays cool to the touch as advertised. Has anyone else tried their system?

http://www.water4gas-glenville.com

I thought maybe they were using the mason jars of w4g, but it's a 316L SS plate Cell.
01-13-2009 01:46 PM
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mrbillr Offline
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RE: Cross Cell
(01-13-2009 01:46 PM)poorman Wrote:  I have this cell installed on my truck and on my friends truck. It really produces lots of HHO, without using a lot of amperage and stays cool to the touch as advertised. Has anyone else tried their system?

http://www.water4gas-glenville.com

I thought maybe they were using the mason jars of w4g, but it's a 316L SS plate Cell.
HA HA. I just watched the video and what he is claiming as 3.5LPM at 7 amps is a joke!!!!!
Yes, the 7 amps may be correct, but he is way off on the HHO output. Those bubbles were just doing the slow; blip, blip, blip, blip. That is no where close to even 1 lpm. I have a dry cell that fills a 2 liter bottle in 42 seconds and I tell you, those bubbles are flat rolling out of there. You can hear the bubbles rattling the reservoir they are coming out that violent.
A blip, blip, blip. No where close. That flow meter is faulty, do the jug test.

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
01-13-2009 09:02 PM
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imstanglenville Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Cross Cell
(01-13-2009 09:02 PM)mrbillr Wrote:  
(01-13-2009 01:46 PM)poorman Wrote:  I have this cell installed on my truck and on my friends truck. It really produces lots of HHO, without using a lot of amperage and stays cool to the touch as advertised. Has anyone else tried their system?

http://www.water4gas-glenville.com

I thought maybe they were using the mason jars of w4g, but it's a 316L SS plate Cell.
HA HA. I just watched the video and what he is claiming as 3.5LPM at 7 amps is a joke!!!!!
Yes, the 7 amps may be correct, but he is way off on the HHO output. Those bubbles were just doing the slow; blip, blip, blip, blip. That is no where close to even 1 lpm. I have a dry cell that fills a 2 liter bottle in 42 seconds and I tell you, those bubbles are flat rolling out of there. You can hear the bubbles rattling the reservoir they are coming out that violent.
A blip, blip, blip. No where close. That flow meter is faulty, do the jug test.

I've always wondered about the jug test. How is it possible that a gas can be measured by moving a liquid. Even in dry versus liquid measure in cooking. Dry measure or a quart is different than liquid measure of a quart.

The gas has to remove the liquid and lift a heavy (maybe not for you or I, but for an ant, the bottle would be heavy) plastic container opposite the force of gravity to achieve the results that are relied upon by so many. And since hydrogen is lighter than air, it would have to fight an even harder uphill fight.

How do you positively know that the device we used is not measuring correctly. Maybe the device is getting the 3.5 LPM and your system maybe getting much more than what you claim it is. After all we used an actual flow meter, while you claim to use a plastic soda bottle submerged in water inside another plastic jug.

If thousands of people would tell you that it is impossible for a plane to fly or to split water into a flammable substance would that stop you from trying and experimenting when you know in your heart that it is possible. So, maybe it is possible that the bottle test is flawed and the flow meter is correct.

I've got an idea and I'll have to give it a try later this morning. I remember as a kid, my uncle who was a pulminary doctor had a test to measure the capacity of our breathing. I would blow on this flow meter to judge the capacity of my lungs. If I remember correctly it would also give me the amount in LPM that I could blow in one breath.

Actually, and this may blow the lid off of some of the research and experimentation of most of the HHO world. I just did a Google search of lung capacity. Take a look at this link: http://www1.va.gov/vasafety/docs/Notes-N...ct2002.doc go to the bottom of page 3, top of 4

In a nut shell it says that minimum breathing is 89-201 LPM. Medium respiratory air flow is from 143 LPM to 289 LPM and maximum (like under a heavy load) respiratory air flow is 265 - 378 LPM. Now, I'm sure that they didn't use a soda bottle submerged in a tank of water to field their test. They most likely used a flowmeter.

So, going by these figures, if I were to just normally breathe into the tube that goes into your soda bottle. I should empty it of water in less than a second. Assuming I could only just breathe at 89 LPM. In another section of the article it says that the velocity over the broad range of human breathing patterns up to and including 700 LPM. Which would probably be like a millisecond to empty that soda bottle of water. I can't even dump out that water in less than a couple of seconds, much less blow air into it to displace the water with air.

And air as we all know is heavier than hydrogen and should be able to displace more matter than a lighter substance. So, I would respectfully say (without the sarcasm and ha ha's) that you're device is incorrect with accurately gauging the LPM of HHO.

Our Cross Cell is capable of producing more HHO at higher amperage and remain cool to the touch. I used 7 amps because I could generate 3.5 LPM (on flowmeter) and that is just about right for the engine size of my test vehicle with a 3.9 Liter engine.

Our tests have shown that if you introduce more HHO than necessary into a vehicle, it has the tendency to actually worsen the MPG. I'm sure that the sensors will also have to be tweaked to a greater extent as well.

I never could figure out why people would want to subject their vehicles to such a high amperage, boil the water creating way too much steam to generate high amounts of HHO, unless they were trying to make a torch or run the vehicle with HHO alone.

I stand by my results with my flow meter and I will try the blowing test tomorrow into the soda bottle submerged in water and see what it meausres. My flow meter only goes up to 8 LPM, so I'll use the test results of that website as a "rule of thumb", but I'm sure that I won't be able to empty the soda bottle of water in less than a second and I'm in reasonably good shape.

http://www.water4gas-glenville.com
01-13-2009 11:59 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Cross Cell
Quote:I've always wondered about the jug test. How is it possible that a gas can be measured by moving a liquid. Even in dry versus liquid measure in cooking. Dry measure or a quart is different than liquid measure of a quart.

Measurement is by liter volume. A liter of gas is taken as the amount of gas required to displace a liter of liquid.
Results will vary with gas temperature, as well as ambient temperature.

Quote:The gas has to remove the liquid and lift a heavy (maybe not for you or I, but for an ant, the bottle would be heavy) plastic container opposite the force of gravity to achieve the results that are relied upon by so many. And since hydrogen is lighter than air, it would have to fight an even harder uphill fight.

I doubt whether there is any great compression of gas as a result of the weight of a plastic bottle, and that any such compression will have any great bearing on the results obtained. In any case, HHO is a mix of hydrogen and oxygen. Guess what. Oxygen is HEAVIER than air.

Quote:How do you positively know that the device we used is not measuring correctly. Maybe the device is getting the 3.5 LPM and your system maybe getting much more than what you claim it is. After all we used an actual flow meter, while you claim to use a plastic soda bottle submerged in water inside another plastic jug.

Your device may be measuring correctly, if used with the gas type for which your flow meter was designed.
Do a Google search and you will find that this type of flow meter is specific to the gas type being measured. Argon, C)2, Oxygen, etc. These are not a single design works with all.


Quote:So, maybe it is possible that the bottle test is flawed and the flow meter is correct.

See previous comment on flow meter type.

Quote:I've got an idea and I'll have to give it a try later this morning. I remember as a kid, my uncle who was a pulminary doctor had a test to measure the capacity of our breathing. I would blow on this flow meter to judge the capacity of my lungs. If I remember correctly it would also give me the amount in LPM that I could blow in one breath.


My understanding is that the device you mention is used simply to measure lung capacity, not how many liters per minute you can expel from your lungs. Used for a general test for lung disease problems, etc, and is a qualitative result rather than a quantitative result.

Quote:And air as we all know is heavier than hydrogen and should be able to displace more matter than a lighter substance. So, I would respectfully say (without the sarcasm and ha ha's) that you're device is incorrect with accurately gauging the LPM of HHO.

Again, oxygen is heavier than air, and since actual mass of oxygen is greater than the mass of hydrogen produced, the net effect is a gas mix which is heavier than air. So that argument doesn't hold water.Tongue

Quote:Our Cross Cell is capable of producing more HHO at higher amperage and remain cool to the touch. I used 7 amps because I could generate 3.5 LPM (on flowmeter) and that is just about right for the engine size of my test vehicle with a 3.9 Liter engine.

Why not substantiate your claims by sending one of your units for test by Scambusters?
Be great for your business if your claims are verified.

Quote:Our tests have shown that if you introduce more HHO than necessary into a vehicle, it has the tendency to actually worsen the MPG. I'm sure that the sensors will also have to be tweaked to a greater extent as well.

So far, there is no hard and fast rule with respect to the ratio of HHO / Engine capacity. What works for one may not work for someone else. Identical vehicle types are generally not identical. Driving style has a great effect on parameters stored by your ECU during self-teach of ECU for driving style.

Quote:I never could figure out why people would want to subject their vehicles to such a high amperage, boil the water creating way too much steam to generate high amounts of HHO, unless they were trying to make a torch or run the vehicle with HHO alone.

The jury is still out on this. How much HHO is necessary for optimum performance.

Quote:I stand by my results with my flow meter and I will try the blowing test tomorrow into the soda bottle submerged in water and see what it meausres. My flow meter only goes up to 8 LPM, so I'll use the test results of that website as a "rule of thumb", but I'm sure that I won't be able to empty the soda bottle of water in less than a second and I'm in reasonably good shape.

Would be nice if you produced a video of this test. Also , if possible, could you also video a comparison of bubbles produced by your 7 amp generator, and that produced by your lung capacity.
Might be an unfair comparison being that the gases are different in composition. HHO V CO2/Air/Etc. Best attempt if possible.


Please note that I never once used the expression 'HA HA' in this post. No sarcasm was intended by this post. Have a nice day.
01-14-2009 04:24 AM
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imstanglenville Offline
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RE: Cross Cell
(01-14-2009 04:24 AM)benny Wrote:  
Quote:I've always wondered about the jug test. How is it possible that a gas can be measured by moving a liquid. Even in dry versus liquid measure in cooking. Dry measure or a quart is different than liquid measure of a quart.

Measurement is by liter volume. A liter of gas is taken as the amount of gas required to displace a liter of liquid.
Results will vary with gas temperature, as well as ambient temperature.

Quote:The gas has to remove the liquid and lift a heavy (maybe not for you or I, but for an ant, the bottle would be heavy) plastic container opposite the force of gravity to achieve the results that are relied upon by so many. And since hydrogen is lighter than air, it would have to fight an even harder uphill fight.

I doubt whether there is any great compression of gas as a result of the weight of a plastic bottle, and that any such compression will have any great bearing on the results obtained. In any case, HHO is a mix of hydrogen and oxygen. Guess what. Oxygen is HEAVIER than air.

Quote:How do you positively know that the device we used is not measuring correctly. Maybe the device is getting the 3.5 LPM and your system maybe getting much more than what you claim it is. After all we used an actual flow meter, while you claim to use a plastic soda bottle submerged in water inside another plastic jug.

Your device may be measuring correctly, if used with the gas type for which your flow meter was designed.
Do a Google search and you will find that this type of flow meter is specific to the gas type being measured. Argon, C)2, Oxygen, etc. These are not a single design works with all.


Quote:So, maybe it is possible that the bottle test is flawed and the flow meter is correct.

See previous comment on flow meter type.

Quote:I've got an idea and I'll have to give it a try later this morning. I remember as a kid, my uncle who was a pulminary doctor had a test to measure the capacity of our breathing. I would blow on this flow meter to judge the capacity of my lungs. If I remember correctly it would also give me the amount in LPM that I could blow in one breath.


My understanding is that the device you mention is used simply to measure lung capacity, not how many liters per minute you can expel from your lungs. Used for a general test for lung disease problems, etc, and is a qualitative result rather than a quantitative result.

Quote:And air as we all know is heavier than hydrogen and should be able to displace more matter than a lighter substance. So, I would respectfully say (without the sarcasm and ha ha's) that you're device is incorrect with accurately gauging the LPM of HHO.

Again, oxygen is heavier than air, and since actual mass of oxygen is greater than the mass of hydrogen produced, the net effect is a gas mix which is heavier than air. So that argument doesn't hold water.Tongue

Quote:Our Cross Cell is capable of producing more HHO at higher amperage and remain cool to the touch. I used 7 amps because I could generate 3.5 LPM (on flowmeter) and that is just about right for the engine size of my test vehicle with a 3.9 Liter engine.

Why not substantiate your claims by sending one of your units for test by Scambusters?
Be great for your business if your claims are verified.

Quote:Our tests have shown that if you introduce more HHO than necessary into a vehicle, it has the tendency to actually worsen the MPG. I'm sure that the sensors will also have to be tweaked to a greater extent as well.

So far, there is no hard and fast rule with respect to the ratio of HHO / Engine capacity. What works for one may not work for someone else. Identical vehicle types are generally not identical. Driving style has a great effect on parameters stored by your ECU during self-teach of ECU for driving style.

Quote:I never could figure out why people would want to subject their vehicles to such a high amperage, boil the water creating way too much steam to generate high amounts of HHO, unless they were trying to make a torch or run the vehicle with HHO alone.

The jury is still out on this. How much HHO is necessary for optimum performance.

Quote:I stand by my results with my flow meter and I will try the blowing test tomorrow into the soda bottle submerged in water and see what it meausres. My flow meter only goes up to 8 LPM, so I'll use the test results of that website as a "rule of thumb", but I'm sure that I won't be able to empty the soda bottle of water in less than a second and I'm in reasonably good shape.

Would be nice if you produced a video of this test. Also , if possible, could you also video a comparison of bubbles produced by your 7 amp generator, and that produced by your lung capacity.
Might be an unfair comparison being that the gases are different in composition. HHO V CO2/Air/Etc. Best attempt if possible.


Please note that I never once used the expression 'HA HA' in this post. No sarcasm was intended by this post. Have a nice day.

Yes, I did notice quite a bit more sincerity in your reply (well except for the little blue dude) than the last person. However, I have to disagree with this statement "Again, oxygen is heavier than air, and since actual mass of oxygen is greater than the mass of hydrogen produced, the net effect is a gas mix which is heavier than air. So that argument doesn't hold water."

If as you say that the gas mix is heavier than air, then why does it float a balloon which is lots heavier than air? Hydrogen alone is lighter than air. I'm wondering if pure oxygen or if my statement of oxygen being heavier than hydrogen is true or not, now that I think about it. Then again, you don't see many oxygen balloon's or oxygen dirigible's floating around. Maybe the weight doesn't figure into the equation at all, but the volume or mass of a gas has more correlation to this equation.

My wife just woke me up, after way too less sleep. I'll bbl and take a fresh look at this. But, yes I think I will send off one of our cells. And yes, later on I will make a vid and post it on YouTube and/or my site and link back to here.

http://www.water4gas-glenville.com
01-14-2009 04:52 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Cross Cell
(01-13-2009 09:02 PM)mrbillr Wrote:  HA HA. I just watched the video and what he is claiming as 3.5LPM at 7 amps is a joke!!!!!

I figured it was typical advertising where it can do either 7 amps or 3.5 LPM.

My first impression was it was spam, but last time I made that accusation, the person who sent it was still around.Hmm

I'm not impressed with any site that has a flash home page and a bunch of hype and you have to search to find any info.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
01-14-2009 05:30 AM
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mrbillr Offline
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RE: Cross Cell
(01-14-2009 05:30 AM)colchiro Wrote:  
(01-13-2009 09:02 PM)mrbillr Wrote:  HA HA. I just watched the video and what he is claiming as 3.5LPM at 7 amps is a joke!!!!!

I figured it was typical advertising where it can do either 7 amps or 3.5 LPM.

My first impression was it was spam, but last time I made that accusation, the person who sent it was still around.Hmm

I'm not impressed with any site that has a flash home page and a bunch of hype and you have to search to find any info.

I thought about getting a flow meter, but as was stated above, the meters are calibrated by the type of gas it is measuring. There is not a meter that measures HHO. Maybe Oxygen, or Argon, or CO2, but not Hydrogen/Oxygen gas.
Since YouTube has 5 years of videos showing the HHO gas results by using a soda bottle, it has become standard practice to report flow rate based on the soda bottle displacement. If someone reports "great results" then they are requested to do the bottle test and report those results. And this is world wide, from Australia to Brazil to England. Not just somebody in their garage in Georgia stating their claim. So when someone reports 3.5 LPM, you expect a rolling amount of bubbles. And this clearly was not that.
Cross Cell bubbles
Anyway, you be the judge.

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
01-14-2009 11:59 AM
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pfai Offline
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RE: Cross Cell
Another thing not being taken into account is the fact that the HHO is produced in "bubbles", each bubble ,when it pops, makes a surge ,rendering a flow meter in-accurate. I found this out the hard way, bought a medical flow meter and tested my cell and thought ,man, what a great cell producing way up there,would actually pin the ball in the flow meter to the top of the meter.Measured with the "bottle" meter produced 1.5 LPM @ 15 amp , which is a pretty good cell but nothing like I thought it was @ first.
Paul
01-14-2009 12:07 PM
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imstanglenville Offline
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RE: Cross Cell
(01-14-2009 05:30 AM)colchiro Wrote:  I'm not impressed with any site that has a flash home page and a bunch of hype and you have to search to find any info.

Well, I will have to apologize to you for my lack of web making experience. I've been putting so much time into research and testing on our cells that I haven't had the time to take a full fledged web making course at our local college.

Now, I'm pretty good at typing, from many years of Yahoo and MSN, but sadly my expertise in webmaking seems a lot to be desired. I did not know that flash page introductions were taboo or considered your home page. I thought the home page was the page called "Home Page". I also tried to keep my pages listed as the material that they contained. Like Home page: For who we are and what we have
Cross Cell: For more knowledge on what it is (yes, I know it's blank, only 24 hours in a day and I'm tired)
Knowledge: For the in and outs of the HHO Technology and how it's came to be
Figures: For the numbers behind the technology and (what I thought) for a really cool Excel table that lists the % gains of your mileage.
Testimonials: For people that we've installed for (most buy and install themselves) and their results.
Products: For the products we make and promote
Installers: For the people that install our Cross Cell and their contact info
Contact: For a way for people to contact us

But, I guess what I need to do is just put it all on one page like the Water4Gas people do and you can read everything on one page. I personally didn't like that, but I see that you are the admin for this forum, so you obviously know more about webpage design than I. So, thank you for sharing with me. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my ignorance of Internet protocol.

I figured I had a pretty good cell, wanted to share my design and ideas with others and came on here to ask what the opinions would be. So, now I know and I'm the wiser for it.

(01-14-2009 11:59 AM)mrbillr Wrote:  I thought about getting a flow meter, but as was stated above, the meters are calibrated by the type of gas it is measuring. There is not a meter that measures HHO. Maybe Oxygen, or Argon, or CO2, but not Hydrogen/Oxygen gas.
Since YouTube has 5 years of videos showing the HHO gas results by using a soda bottle, it has become standard practice to report flow rate based on the soda bottle displacement. If someone reports "great results" then they are requested to do the bottle test and report those results. And this is world wide, from Australia to Brazil to England. Not just somebody in their garage in Georgia stating their claim. So when someone reports 3.5 LPM, you expect a rolling amount of bubbles. And this clearly was not that.
Cross Cell bubbles
Anyway, you be the judge.

All I wanted to do when I designed and marketed the Cross Cell was to show actual and true readings of the output of LPM of my cell. I did not want to defraud or mislead anyone. I understand that there are misconceptions and discrepancies that the general public is aware of. I wanted to be as up front and honest with people as I could. I contacted several manufacturers of flow meters, Rotameters and devices for measuring the flow of gas and liquids. I contacted Rich Cada at Fox Thermal Instruments and have been in correspondance with him to develop a flowmeter that will accurately measure HHO production.

I apologize to all in the HHO world if my website or it's product was in any way offensive or crass. I used the flow meter that I thought was cost effective and accurate for measuring LPM. I never could understand how you could accurately measure gas with a liquid base. Seemed a lot like comparing oranges with watermelons. But, if you say that all the HHO world would like to use inaccurate measurements, then who am I to argue with that reasoning. I only wanted to be precise and accurate as I could.
(01-14-2009 12:07 PM)pfai Wrote:  Another thing not being taken into account is the fact that the HHO is produced in "bubbles", each bubble ,when it pops, makes a surge ,rendering a flow meter in-accurate. I found this out the hard way, bought a medical flow meter and tested my cell and thought ,man, what a great cell producing way up there,would actually pin the ball in the flow meter to the top of the meter.Measured with the "bottle" meter produced 1.5 LPM @ 15 amp , which is a pretty good cell but nothing like I thought it was @ first.
Paul


Actually Paul, if you use a bubbler after your cell and before your tester, then all you have is a steady flow of HHO gas. Even then most flow meters that I've tested you still need to make sure that when you take your reading the ball is pretty much stationary not popping up and down. They will tell you the same thing when doing the pulminary test. Blow evenly not in bursts to get an accurate reading.

The ball will settle down to an accurate reading given a little patience

http://www.water4gas-glenville.com
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2009 01:50 PM by imstanglenville.)
01-14-2009 01:41 PM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: Cross Cell
(01-14-2009 05:30 AM)colchiro Wrote:  I'm not impressed with any site that has a flash home page and a bunch of hype and you have to search to find any info.

(01-14-2009 01:41 PM)imstanglenville Wrote:  Well, I will have to apologize to you for my lack of web making experience. I've been putting so much time into research and testing on our cells that I haven't had the time to take a full fledged web making course at our local college.

First of all, it looks like my first instinct was correct. I assumed poorman was promoting his website, but I bit my tongue and didn't say anything. Poorman and imstanglenville appear to be the same person (or at least share a computer).

IP Address Result
69.253.35.30 Registration IP: imstanglenville
69.253.35.30 Last Known IP: imstanglenville
69.253.35.30 Registration IP: poorman
69.253.35.30 Last Known IP: poorman

Secondly, my appraisal of your website was all of 2 clicks and I didn't see any pictures, which probably influenced my impression the most. Maybe that was Firefox blocking images, I don't know. I'm sure you've heard the statement that a user will look at your website for about 30 seconds and if they don't see what they're looking for, will leave. That was my experience. I am a fussy web developer by trade so probably was overly critical.

Instead of trying to deceive us by implying you had no connection to the website and had said, here is my new website, what can I do to make it better, I bet you would have received a better welcome. People always have better manners when they know the person being critiqued is present.

I think the Flash on the home page is cool. I just don't like that on a home page and I have to click to see your real site. Also, when I opened your site in IE, I get a prompt to open content in Media Player. When people see that they don't realize what the web site is trying to install and will often leave.

Your website is a nice one for a beginner and beats the first one I created 10 years ago and I hope you continue to develop it.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
01-14-2009 02:48 PM
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