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Digital EFIE?
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tesla Offline
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Post: #1
Digital EFIE?
Hi all, newbie here. While I'm new to this forum and HHO systems in general I do happen to have some 30 plus years experience of being a professional mechanic.

My question pertains to the long voltage "settle time" while calibrating the EFIE. Have read somewhere that there's a digital version of an EFIE that affords instant voltage change...no waiting for it to settle.

Not trying to put down one system, nor do I represent or have anything to do with any manufacturers of digital versions...just honestly asking what your take is: Am I concerned over nothing or is this a valid issue?

Seems to me, in theory anyway, that a digital system would be that much more accurate, stable, and easier to calibrate...potentially safer too, assuming you were doing so by yourself. Thanks!

...same thing we do every night Pinky, plan to take over the world!
07-23-2008 10:53 AM
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tesla Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
No comments (or insults) yet? What about CMOS? Any input would be much appreciated.

...same thing we do every night Pinky, plan to take over the world!
07-24-2008 08:04 AM
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rwhit Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
This is from the Documents section of this forum check it out expails alot of this type stuff.

The EFIE works on a delay. When the engine is started, the oxygen sensors are cold and do not send correct data to the computer. We don't want to modify this data until the sensor is operating correctly. The EFIE will build up to it's rated voltage offset over 3 to 5 minutes, longer in very cold weather. Also, when you turn the vehicle off, the EFIE loses it's voltage offset slowly. This means it will more quickly jump back into full operation if the car is re-started again after a short stop. This is by design, but you need to know about it when trying to adjust your EFIE. When you make a change, you'll see your meter start changing, and keep changing after you've stopped turning the adjustment screw. The bulk of the change will occur after the first minute, but if you have a sensitive meter, you will see it minutely increase for up to 10 minutes.

Hope this helps Rusty
07-24-2008 08:42 AM
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tesla Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
Hi Rusty, thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware of the documents section here and will check it out shortly.

FYI, I'm a professional mechanic so am well acquainted with open versus closed loop etc. My concerns are more along the lines of the initial set up/calibration of the EFIE and any subsequent resetting of same. On the face of it, it seems to me that it makes more sense to have a digital circuit that would permit instant changes in setting the voltages (and would lock them in without relying on a pot...which historically are prone to drift due to many factors).

See? I'm not nearly as dumb as I smell LOL!!

Edit: Found the documents and now understand why I wasn't aware of them...there's no direct link on the forum page! You need to go to http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/ and then click on "Documents"

A small but important oversight which hopefully the moderators will correct.

...same thing we do every night Pinky, plan to take over the world!
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2008 09:24 AM by tesla.)
07-24-2008 09:21 AM
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rwhit Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
Gald to have you here I am a Industrail Maintenance Tect. and have been a Auto Mechanic all my life (My dad owns his own shop ha ha). There's alot of reading on this site and a lot of good people with a lot of info Good luck.

Later Rusty
07-24-2008 10:05 AM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
I don't know why you can't find the documents section. There's one on every page I look.Hmm [Image: finger_anim.gif]

rwhit, you beat me to the explanation. Think of it this way, your hho takes a few minutes to get up to speed and your EFIE takes a few minutes to go lean. It's a coordinated effort.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-24-2008 06:55 PM
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Atom Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
colchiro Wrote:I don't know why you can't find the documents section. There's one on every page I look.Hmm [Image: finger_anim.gif]

rwhit, you beat me to the explanation. Think of it this way, your hho takes a few minutes to get up to speed and your EFIE takes a few minutes to go lean. It's a coordinated effort.
Tesla with you being a tech for as long say you are, is it true that o2 sensor isn't the only sensor that the ECU looks at for fuel trim. There are more sensors that it looks at for information there for trying to trick the ECU through the O2 sensor in most cases will not work.
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2008 08:22 PM by Atom.)
07-24-2008 08:21 PM
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Atom Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
colchiro Wrote:I don't know why you can't find the documents section. There's one on every page I look.Hmm [Image: finger_anim.gif]

rwhit, you beat me to the explanation. Think of it this way, your hho takes a few minutes to get up to speed and your EFIE takes a few minutes to go lean. It's a coordinated effort.
Tesla with you being a tech for as long say you are, is it true that o2 sensor isn't the only thing that the ECU looks at for fuel trim. There are more sensors that it looks at for information there for trying to trick the ECU through the O2 sensor in most cases will not work.
07-24-2008 08:23 PM
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tesla Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
Did you say something, did you say something? LOL

Your question cannot be answered simply...simply because there are far too many different systems! You need to specify what vehicle in particular you're dealing with.

The older ECUs (pre-OBD) were fairly slow and relatively "stupid" so tweaking their performance without a slew of side effects is easier than today's latest techno-whiz-bang electrician's nightmares. GIGO!!

...same thing we do every night Pinky, plan to take over the world!
07-24-2008 09:02 PM
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tesla Offline
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RE: Digital EFIE?
colchiro Wrote:I don't know why you can't find the documents section. There's one on every page I look.Hmm [Image: finger_anim.gif]
I use Firefox, perhaps that's why? I've looked and looked and don't see any links to Documents on the forum pages.
Quote:rwhit, you beat me to the explanation. Think of it this way, your hho takes a few minutes to get up to speed and your EFIE takes a few minutes to go lean. It's a coordinated effort.
Thanks for the input, but you guys are missing the point that concerns me...or perhaps I'm worrying over nothing. Below is a quote from a seller of a digital EFIE. Note that I've left out any identification as I want it to be understood that I'm not a shill for him and here to drum up business, just trying to get info!

==================================================
"So what issues does the original E.F.I.E have?

First of all if you ever dealt with the original E.F.I.E the next sentence taken from the HHO forum describes the frustration experienced by all E.F.I.E users:

“…..You will probably find adjusting the EFIE to be frustrating at first. When you turn the adjustment screw, the voltage starts rising (or lowering) and keeps on doing so long after you've stopped turning the screw. It can take up to 10 minutes or more for the voltage changes to completely settle down. I have learned to set EFIEs similarly to balancing a long stick on your finger… “

For you information all the E.F.I.E devices other than D.E.F.I.E are based on the schematic provided by Eagle Research. Though you can find E.F.I.E with different circuit board shapes and some enclosed into the project boxes all them the same design and there of the same characteristics. There is another type of E.F.I.E based on the “AA” battery but it is not even worth time mentioning.

Let’s quickly dive into the original E.F.I.E design so you understand the challenges. The circuit designed around analog frequency modulator with a transformer where the final voltage supplied to oxygen sensor is adjusted via trimming potentiometers. The user has to fiddle with the potentiometer and let the voltage to stabilize which takes about 5-10 minutes. Another issue which is not usually described by sellers for the original E.F.I.E is that it is very temperature unstable. Due to its analog nature the circuit’s output changes relative to the outside temperature which makes is almost impossible to achieve the desired output and ultimately HHO system performance.

Digital E.F.I.E or D.E.F.I.E for short takes care of all that makes tuning of HHO system a much simple procedure. D.E.F.I.E is build with special chipset specifically designed for automotive application. D.E.F.I.E provides simple three button interface allowing the user to set the desired output instantly without the 5-10 minutes wait like the original interface. Since the output is instantly set with “-“ and “+” control buttons it is no longer takes two people or stop the vehicle to tune the E.F.I.E. Tuning can be done while in motion simply with a push of the button.

Original E.F.I.E requires turning the potentiometers with a screw driver to set the output though it is not clear how many turns gives how many mV and when to stop to not to break the pots. Since D.E.F.I.E utilizing state of the art digital control circuit with active feedback it takes the guess out of the picture. Each push of the button increases or decreases the output by precise value. D.E.F.I.E has built in circuit temperature control so the circuit stays ‘warm’ and the output does no change either on cold winter morning or hot summer day.

Currently there are no standards for HHO systems and there are varieties of them available on the market. It requires trial and error approach to set and tune the system to achieve best performance and ultimately the best fuel economy. D.E.F.I.E is here to help. Not only it allows for two preset outputs to be stored in memory but also give the user ability to adjust the output on the fly without affecting the preset values and save it only when the desired results are achieved. All those features are not available in the original E.F.I.E. But that is not it, D.E.F.I.E has the soft startup feature to match o2 sensor warm up rate which can be achieved by the original E.F.I.E only by altering the circuit, soldering different values capacitors and choosing the right capacitor value by trial and error approach. D.E.F.I.E gives you the flexibility to set five different soft start-up output rise rates from slow 50mv/min to instant. Also startup delay can be overridden with externally installed button. "
==================================================

So....to quoteth Willy Shakespeare, is this much ado about nuthin?

...same thing we do every night Pinky, plan to take over the world!
07-24-2008 09:13 PM
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