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Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
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MtnGoatXJ Offline
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Post: #1
Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
Long time lurker, first time HHO project.

After countless hours of reading and calculating, my HHO Jeep project has finally come to life!
Since the Jeep is fully registered in a state of maximum smog restrictions and laws, I have maintained the operation of all the smog equipment with this installation.

Today marked the first time the cell bubbled.
Which is rather common place for some, but for some reason I stood and stared at the thing for a good hour. Confused

I did have a moment of despair as the distilled water only mixture produced the expected result, nothing........ After a shot of vitamin T (made from 100% agave) and a Corona, I remembered I had nothing in the water. Three tablespoons of baking soda helped the process.

VIOLA! It makes gas bubbles

Now to start the cell installation inside the engine compartment. But the big question is do I need a Pulse Width Modulator?
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2010 09:31 PM by MtnGoatXJ.)
10-10-2010 09:14 PM
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jbalat Offline
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RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
Congratulations !!

Just my 2 cents.. (I have been making HHO for a couple of years now and still no descent savings so up to you if you want to take my advice)

No you dont need a PWM. A PWM only helps to control current runaway. This happens when your cell overheats.. If you have a good design with plenty of circulating electrolyte then you should be ok.. Monitor the starting amps and then monitor the amps after a long drive so you have an idea what to expect. If you get a big jump in amps then either go for a pwm or play with the design or get a larger resevoir.

-Use KOH or NaOH instead of baking soda
-Dont use glass jars
-You must hook the generator up to a relay powered up by your fuel pump, never use a manual switch or acc power.
-To minimise heat buildup aim for 6 or 7 plates in series and then run 2,3, or 4 units in parallel to get more gas.
- use a bubbler
- check for leaks

Once its all go you will probably lose about 10% fuel efficiency. Then check out the store on this website for a good efie that will suit your car. Good luck.
PS.If you get any savings I will be really jealous.
10-11-2010 12:43 AM
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MtnGoatXJ Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
I built a cell +NNNN-NNNN+NNNN- with 3x4 (316L) plates in a 2Qt container.

On the bench with Baking Soda it got warm rather quick consuming 10-16 Amps. I had planned to use a circulating pump and heat exchanger.

Any advise on concentrations of KOH or NaOH is greatly appreciated. I just need a starting point.

I have already setup an EFIE with a AFR guage. It works well and just leaning out fuel does not make for better fuel economy.

The engine is a I-6 that I have been working with for about a year. It has a new set of Bosch Gen 3 injectors that gets around 15-17 MPG. All the engines sensors and mechanicals have been gone through. This is my service vehicle that is driven daily so there will be good objective test results.

Looking forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas with this forum.

Cheers!
10-11-2010 07:42 AM
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mike Offline
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RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
This all sounds good. On your KOH concentration: You need to add KOH until you reach your target amp draw. I wouldn't shoot for over 15 amps. You might want to target it at 10 amps while cool, and see what kind of increase you get over time. Again, without a current limiting PWM, you have to watch out for current run away. That's when the cell gets warmer, drawing more amps, making it warmer still, more amps...
PS: I usually get about 40% improvement on my vehicles with HHO. I think jbalat has a very resistant vehicle.

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(This post was last modified: 10-11-2010 11:38 AM by mike.)
10-11-2010 11:37 AM
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MtnGoatXJ Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
So a PWM is a good investment?
10-11-2010 03:01 PM
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
Re AFR:
======
I have also found that playing with the AFR does not necessarily give you better economy. Running at 14.7 gives more power than running at 16.7 so you will actually be using more throttle to get your power back.

In this case the AFR is misleading...
AFR=16.7 but --> More throttle --> more air --> more fuel --> constant AFR
What we really need to monitor is Throttle position !!!

Re PWM:
=======
It depends on your design.. Mine will start at 18 amps and only get to 20 amps after a long drive so in my case I dont need a PWM.. No PWM always gives more gas than running a PWM (except if you are Bob Boyce and have a magical PWM)

Others will deliberately load enough KOH in there so the cell can run at 25 Amps cold (for example) then they use a PWM to maintain 20 Amps at all times....

This has the advantage of getting full HHO production when it is cold and maintain a consistent HHO production under all conditions, even as it warms up.. This is ideally what you want to keep your afr steady so your efie works correctly.
10-11-2010 03:37 PM
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bsmart Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
(10-11-2010 03:37 PM)jbalat Wrote:  Re AFR:
======
I have also found that playing with the AFR does not necessarily give you better economy. Running at 14.7 gives more power than running at 16.7 so you will actually be using more throttle to get your power back.

In this case the AFR is misleading...
AFR=16.7 but --> More throttle --> more air --> more fuel --> constant AFR
What we really need to monitor is Throttle position !!!

Re PWM:
=======
It depends on your design.. Mine will start at 18 amps and only get to 20 amps after a long drive so in my case I dont need a PWM.. No PWM always gives more gas than running a PWM (except if you are Bob Boyce and have a magical PWM)

Others will deliberately load enough KOH in there so the cell can run at 25 Amps cold (for example) then they use a PWM to maintain 20 Amps at all times....

This has the advantage of getting full HHO production when it is cold and maintain a consistent HHO production under all conditions, even as it warms up.. This is ideally what you want to keep your afr steady so your efie works correctly.

jbalat, just curious.....what vehicle are you trying to get results with that is so resistant??
10-11-2010 06:50 PM
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MtnGoatXJ Offline
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RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
I installed a separate O2 sensor for my AFR gauge. This way I can "see" the true AFR rather than the EFIE adjusted AFR.

I believe that the PWM will be the best bet for my application. That is to say I need a system that does not require constant monitoring or adjusting. Oh yes it will have a bank of gauges for monitoring purposes! OCD ya know........

KOH or NaOH..... any preferrences?
10-11-2010 09:17 PM
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
Supposedly KOH is better than NaOH in that it requires less concentration to get the same effect. Some people have mentioned that combining KOH and NaOH gives the best solution.

In terms of AFR I use the LC-1 and I can program it to simulate the narrowband sensor so in effect I can use it as an efie in closed loop. Currently it is set to crossover at around 16.5 AFR. Car is happy to obey the LC-1 no matter what I do to the MAF. So no need to worry about fuel trims.. In that case I am hoping to use the MAF signal to indirectly boost my timing - apparently there is a link between the two for my ecu. If anyone can help please let me know.

I use NaOH only because I can buy it off the shelf from the local store.

BTW My Car is a Mitsubishi Pajero '94 3.0L V6. I think you guys call it a Montero? If you find any success stories I would love to hear about it. I think I need more gas for my engine size but I am having problems as I add more NaOH my amp draw does not seem to be going above 20A ? Could my 10A wire be giving too much resistance ?
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2010 02:44 AM by jbalat.)
10-12-2010 02:38 AM
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MtnGoatXJ Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Documenting my 92 Jeep XJ HHO Hybrid
Man the vapors off the NaOH are lethal!
I gotta finish the cell container to start measuring gas production.
10-12-2010 11:03 PM
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