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Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
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jrior001 Offline
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Question Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
OK so here the same question i've read many times....How much NaOH should i expect to use??

Most answers i saw were between 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per liter to draw 10-15 amps roughly.....

I'm new at this but what i'm testing ain't makin sense to me right now....I've built a zerofossilfuels clone with 13 2"x6" 16g plates connected (-nnnnn+nnnnn-) with about a plates thickness separation (16g is about .048" or so) and sealed the edges in acrylic as he describes..... felt pretty confident in my work until i tested it.....

I'm using a clean 3 liter soda bottle with the top cut off full of water as my test resivior. hooked up power to it and began adding NaOH. had the cell running on the bench for close to an hour as i mixed in more and more and more NaOH.... I was well over 10 teaspoons (closer to twelve maybe, i lost count) and barely hit 7 amps. even after running for some time it stayed right at 7 amps.... i'm sure if i added more the current would continue to rise but i had already added double what i ever thought i should have needed?? Any suggestions??? Does a series cell like this typically require a higher concentration?? or is my cell just flawed?? I have plenty more NaOH i was just scared to add more.....

p.s. - the photos are from during construction, not the finished cell.


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(This post was last modified: 07-10-2008 05:46 PM by jrior001.)
07-09-2008 08:16 PM
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cheapfuel Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Electrolyte concentration??
jrior001 Wrote:OK so here the same question i've read many times....How much NaOH should i expect to use??

Most answers i saw were between 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per liter to draw 10-15 amps roughly.....

I'm new at this but what i'm testing ain't makin sense to me right now....I've built a zerofossilfuels clone with 13 2"x6" 16g plates connected (-nnnnn+nnnnn-) with about a plates thickness separation (16g is about .048" or so) and sealed the edges in acrylic as he describes..... felt pretty confident in my work until i tested it.....

I'm using a clean 3 liter soda bottle with the top cut off full of water as my test resivior. hooked up power to it and began adding NaOH. had the cell running on the bench for close to an hour as i mixed in more and more and more NaOH.... I was well over 10 teaspoons (closer to twelve maybe, i lost count) and barely hit 7 amps. even after running for some time it stayed right at 7 amps.... i'm sure if i added more the current would continue to rise but i had already added double what i ever thought i should have needed?? Any suggestions??? Does a series cell like this typically require a higher concentration?? or is my cell just flawed?? I have plenty more NaOH i was just scared to add more.....

p.s. - the photos are from during construction, not the finished cell.

It is not unusual to require a lot of NaOH when cells are in series. I have 3 cells with 4 plates in each and it did require quite a bit of NaOH. Each time I added some the amps went up slightly and the production of HHO increased. I stopped at about 15 amps and 700 ml/min. The generators were cool to the touch. No heating. I am now going to install this in my truck. I find it difficult to find room for a 4th generator. Will see how much saving I get from the 3 cells and 700 ml/min. A 4th cell would bring the amps down and allow me to increase HHO production. There is point where added production is not going to add to the efficency. If I get about 35% improvement in mpg I will be happy.
07-09-2008 09:13 PM
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RDKamikaze Offline
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RE: Electrolyte concentration??
Maybe your cell is flawed, but it doesn't look that way in the construction so I would throw that theory out. I think the problem (if any) could also be that your ammeter is wrong? Maybe it's defective or broken, I don't know, just an idea.

On the flip side, where can I get an ammeter? Does Wal-Mart carry them, seeing how that's the ONLY real store here where I am right now? And would they carry the NaOH stuff (mind drew blank on its name)?

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07-10-2008 08:50 AM
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jrior001 Offline
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RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
So after another round of testing I realized I had a multitude of problems all at the same time....Sad

1. First I noticed that 90% of the action i was seeing was coming from the exposed asreas of the straps that connect the cell to the screw-in lid....

2. Then i checked the current after lifting the cell to keep the straps out of the water..... less than 2 amps!! so yeah my cell sucks!!

3. i also revisited some posts here on spacing and decided my plates were way to close together.

So after spending the next 2 hours cutting through hardened GOOP I had my crappy cell completly broken down. I refused to give up hope though.....Just do i could sleep tonight I quickly slapped something together just to test and prove to myself i could make something work. Much simpler this time... 7 plates connected (+nnnnn-) with double the spacing. (using neoprene washers for spacing. Used 1 before and 2 this time) Dropped it right back in my over-concentrated test bath, and viola!! Instant bubles. No numbers on the current but didn't look to crazy.... Maybe my concentration wasn't as far off as I thought.....Will get some numbers on the current in the next couple of days to verify.
07-10-2008 08:00 PM
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jrior001 Offline
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RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
Quick update on the new configuration....

7 plates connected +nnnnn- edges not yet sealed.... in the same electrolyte bath i've been using.... drew 23 amps at start up and 29 once it warmed up. A little to high for my tastes but this was just a test, ideally I don't want it to run over 20 amps. I'm gonna try to run an output test before I seal up the edges just so i have something for comparison.
(This post was last modified: 07-12-2008 07:58 PM by jrior001.)
07-12-2008 07:58 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
It's very common for the electrolyte to be too weak when changing to a series cell. Once you get those edges sealed up, most of the stray leakage should be under control and I think your current will drop way down again.

Bear in mind this should be more efficient so you really shouldn't need to run 20 amps with this cell for the same results.

FWIW, the smaller the hole at the bottom of your cell, the less leakage you'll have. I would think a 1/4 inch long slot should be big enough.

Instead of (-nnnnn+nnnnn-) if you drop out a neutral from each side (-nnnn+nnnn-) you shouldn't need such a strong electrolyte. Either way works, it's your choice.

Rick

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07-12-2008 10:02 PM
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JET USA Offline
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RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
ok I skipped the quotes for reply. I have built my own version of a cell. This cell has 7 plates configured as ( + n - n + n - )
N = a neutral plate += positive and - = negative. The plates are
approximately 10-1/2" by 3-1/2" of active area. The yeald of square inches area of exposure to current flow is about 441 sq. in. The spacing is approx. 3/16" controled with small chips of acrylic tied by plastic wire ties. (my first design used (7 plates +-+-+-+) )
The design was flawed because the current was way too high. about 30 amps with the electrolyte added. It also overheated. The latest configuration is all the same except for the connections with the neutral plAtes instead. The hho volume is good and the current is less than 6 amps at 12 volts. The cell is 4 inch abs 12 inch long with a cap and cleanout plug from home depot. Stainless is 1/16" or .0625 thickness. with tabs at the top to make the connections. all internal hardware is stainless. electrolyte is bicarb of soda about 1 tsp. for 1.5 gallons of tap water. The efficiency test is another story
The efi system is not giving me any relief. I still need to deal with it.
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my other car is more encouraging an 82 chevy v6 doubled the gas milage. so I added another generator of the same design. too soon to report results. I still need to fix the problem with the dodge..... It hAS A 4 WIRE sensor. I hope my notes can help someone.
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(This post was last modified: 07-12-2008 11:11 PM by JET USA.)
07-12-2008 10:51 PM
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jrior001 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
colchiro Wrote:It's very common for the electrolyte to be too weak when changing to a series cell. Once you get those edges sealed up, most of the stray leakage should be under control and I think your current will drop way down again.
Answers my original question!! Exactly what I was thinking at this point.


colchiro Wrote:Bear in mind this should be more efficient so you really shouldn't need to run 20 amps with this cell for the same results.

No clue what those results were but i drive a JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE with the 4.0L so i want as much as i can get with out going over 20 amps...

colchiro Wrote:Instead of (-nnnnn+nnnnn-) if you drop out a neutral from each side (-nnnn+nnnn-) you shouldn't need such a strong electrolyte. Either way works, it's your choice.

Won't this raise the voltage accross each "cell" and make extra heat?? but in turn i guess it would lower the amount of electrolyte needed cuz it would be a lot less resistance.... hmmmmm....??? My truck stays at about 12.5 volts so if you do that math it's a change from 2.1 V/cell to 2.5 V/cell.... guess it's not much extra so it's not a big deal??
07-13-2008 06:09 AM
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johnh Offline
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RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
When you get the edges of the cell sealed up check the resistance across the cell. Not all sealants are created equal and silicone for one will conduct between the plates. I have been told that goop is also conductive but can't get it here to check, others say it OK, maybe there are different grades.
John
07-13-2008 07:12 AM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: Electrolyte concentration?? Problems in a series cell
JR, better to check that resistance on the bench, before you touch the cells with it. Hate to see you have to redo it.

Better to go with more plates, just saying that the electrolyte concentration is related to the voltage across each set of plates.

Rick

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07-13-2008 07:49 AM
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