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Electrolyzer problem
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Tom Offline
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Post: #1
Electrolyzer problem
Hello everyone,
This is my first post here.

I have just finished a little test-electrolyzer and I have amperage and heat problems.

The jar holds exacly 500 ml (~0.5 quart) of distilled water.
I have put 1 gramm of baking soda in it (a 1/4 teaspoon of soda is ~1.5 gramm, so it is less than that).
I have a 30 mm (a bit more than 1") of gas area under the lid, as it needed.
I have used 306 stainless steel bare welding electrodes. This is what I got immediately in my little town. Of course I'll use 316L for the final rig.
The electrodes has a diameter of 2 mm's (0.08"), they're 1 meter long (~40") and forming a spiral, by the book.
I have used a main switch and a fuse of 15 Amps.
The lid has the air inlet (bubbler), the security valve, the electrodes and the two H.H.O.-output fittings.
Everything is fitted well, no leakage, no short circuit in the wiring or at the electrodes.

For the test, the air inlet was closed, the security valve and one of the outputs was capped.
One output with a hose was led into a bubbler canister with full of water, so this is not an in-car test.
I have wired the stuff along with a multimeter for measuring ampers.

According to the sizes and quantities we could await a little H.H.O.-producing beside a little Amps drawn.

Well, when I turned the electrolyzer on, it produced 0.2 - 0.3 lpm H.H.O. and draw 1.45 Amps. Looked OK.
Then the ampers began slowly climbing up. At 3 Ampers the jar was warm. At 4 Ampers the jar was hot.
The 4 Ampers were reached after 1 hour of working and producing H.H.O. all the time.

I have turned it off at 4.6 Ampers and at a very hot jar... I didn't want melt it down.

I was looking for "the end" of this climbing game, but it's seemingly continued to the infinity.


My questions:

1. What is wrong?
2. Why the ampers not remains at a constant value?
3. Is it depends on the temperature of the water? (some form of cooling would resolve this?)
4. Is it depends on the quantity (low?) of the water (size of the jar)? (half a quart)
5. Is it depends on the electrode? (is it too big/long/thick for this rig?)
6. Should I use even less soda? (that would produce even less H.H.O....)

How do YOU guys keep the ampers at a constant value? Or there is not such a thing?
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2008 10:10 AM by Tom.)
05-28-2008 10:09 AM
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Fatman1 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Electrolyzer problem
I used 4 1/2 liter bottles of water and s/s welding rod on my frist one, I was trying out diffent type of things.
what u didnt tell us was how ear apart your rods are and what you are using for your to run it.
I was using a 12 car battery with a 6 amp charger on it.
in one bottle I had alot of soda it it and my rods 1/64 apart, it got hot fast.
As with wire when it heats up it makes it harder to push power thur it which cause amps to raise.
I would try plain distill water at 12 volts and see what kind of amp draw u have.
then I would add a little Naoh (because that what I use now, it eazyer to get here than KOH,some say baking soda makes nasty gas fumes).
You might also use a bigger jar. you do have a bubbler right?
keep us posted
05-28-2008 01:32 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Electrolyzer problem
When you have 12 volts (actually 14 volts) between 2 electrodes, you're going to get a lot of heat. That's why many people have many neutral plates (often 5 or 6) between the + and - plates to cut down the voltage... kind of hard to do with a spiral.

Rick

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05-28-2008 02:46 PM
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Tom Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Electrolyzer problem
Thank you for your replies.

Yes, I forgot to mention that I power this electrolyzer using a 12V/90Ah car battery, no charger attached.
The the two pole (two spirals) are 7.5 mm (~0.3") apart. Maybe these are too close to each other? Should I shorten the welding electrode to the half and make a new spiral? That would give a double gap size n the same diameter. Will this cause a lower HHO production or it's just lowers the temperature/amperage alone?

I do not mind if the amperage is high, since I can control (lower) it by changing the electrolite, by using a multicell setup etc. But if the ampers are changing / increasing by itself, that annoys me.

Well, you are saying if I can control the temperature, then I can control the ampers drawn, arent't you?
(This post was last modified: 05-28-2008 11:52 PM by Tom.)
05-28-2008 11:50 PM
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desmosabie Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Electrolyzer problem
Tom Wrote:Thank you for your replies.

Yes, I forgot to mention that I power this electrolyzer using a 12V/90Ah car battery, no charger attached.
The the two pole (two spirals) are 7.5 mm (~0.3") apart. Maybe these are too close to each other? Should I shorten the welding electrode to the half and make a new spiral? That would give a double gap size n the same diameter. Will this cause a lower HHO production or it's just lowers the temperature/amperage alone?

I do not mind if the amperage is high, since I can control (lower) it by changing the electrolite, by using a multicell setup etc. But if the ampers are changing / increasing by itself, that annoys me.

Well, you are saying if I can control the temperature, then I can control the ampers drawn, arent't you?

use the amps to control the temp. i would get a 10 amp fuse. maybe even a 5 just for fun. Dont make a new helix, yersis probably good . just change one thing at a time.
05-29-2008 12:03 AM
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Tom Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Electrolyzer problem
I think I'll make a 1 liter (~1 quart) system with the same size electrode and just 0.5 grams more baking soda (= 1.5 g , 1/4 teaspoon). This way the double quantity of water become "cooling water". I guess the water heats up in this case, too, but at a much slower pace.
If I combine 2-4-6 of these 1 liter electrolyzers, I'll reach a point, where the energy coming from the battery will be not enough for heating up the jars, while it produces 6 times more HHO than the standalone jar.

Ok, now when I invented the Spanish Wax it's time to work! Big Grin
05-29-2008 11:03 PM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Electrolyzer problem
Obviously more water will control the heat to a point but as long as you only have the two electrodes and 12 vdc you will be generating a lot of heat. Changing the length of the electrodes or changing the spacing will not cure this issue. The electrolyte will always heat up over time and the amperage will always continue to rise along with the heat as the resistance of the electrolyte changes with temperature. If you let it keep going it will eventually boil the electrolyte and your output gas will mostly be water vapor. For my first generator, a 2 electrode type, I conducted a series of tests and logged the data. If you want to look it over here is the link. I logged temperature, amps, watts, voltage, and made notes about the findings and results.

http://www.c4caraudio.com/mpgs/downloads...20Data.pdf

There are several basic methods to control amperage and a combination of them will be the best option. First, if you want to continue to use your basic two electrode model, you must control the amperage with an external source. A pulse width modulator will work. With this you must continually monitor the amperage and manually adjust to keep it where you want which is not really practical for daily use in a car. Another simple method of amp control is to wire your generator in series with another load like your headlights. The amperage will never exceed the amp requirement of the external load even if the two electrodes were to direct short together. For your generator the headlights will be too much of a load as they will draw ~10amps or more. There are electronic circuits you can make to automatically monitor the amperage and adjust accordingly. I would not go to this effort for the generator you currently have. Use it for testing and educational purposes for now but if you want to use this in a car you will need to build a much more efficient model.

The best option is to make a series plate design like Rick was talking about above. This consists of multiple plates where only two of them are actually wired to your power source. The center plates are neutral or "floating" and are isolated with only the electrolyte between them. The current is forced to pass through the electrolyte through each plate until it reaches the opposite end terminal. Voltage drops by approximately 1.5-2 volts per plate so by using 2 end plates and 6 neutral plates you use the 12-14 volts much more efficiently and the heat generated drops significantly. The trick to making a series plate generator is isolating the plates. You can't just make the plate assembly in drop it into a jar of electrolyte. If the current can pass around the neutral plates to reach the other end electrode it doesn't pass through the neutral plates and you still just have a 2 electrode "parallel" design. The outer edges of the plate assembly must be sealed. Most people have a small 1/8" or so hole in each plate to keep the electrolyte level even between the plates. You will still need amperage control but amp runoff will not be nearly as bad.

To make a long story short, if your generator generates too much heat it is inefficient and it will be difficult to get good results in a car with it. Even if you control the amps with a PWM or other means, you are still wasting a lot of energy to produce gas.

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05-30-2008 08:45 AM
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Tom Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Electrolyzer problem
Hey, thanks for your input, qsiguy! That pdf is really useful! This is what I also want to achieve. To get away from "teaspoons" and "jars" and get closer to more exact things, like gramms, liters etc. This way I could note down exact, replicateable results of my experiments. A teaspoon maybe has a different size in the USA, EU, India, North Pole etc. Smile

I definiately will go with a multicell setup. Why should I waste those volts and apms if I could use them in another "jar". Big Grin
05-30-2008 12:47 PM
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sam1976 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Electrolyzer problem
qsiguy Wrote:Obviously more water will control the heat to a point but as long as you only have the two electrodes and 12 vdc you will be generating a lot of heat. Changing the length of the electrodes or changing the spacing will not cure this issue. The electrolyte will always heat up over time and the amperage will always continue to rise along with the heat as the resistance of the electrolyte changes with temperature. If you let it keep going it will eventually boil the electrolyte and your output gas will mostly be water vapor. For my first generator, a 2 electrode type, I conducted a series of tests and logged the data. If you want to look it over here is the link. I logged temperature, amps, watts, voltage, and made notes about the findings and results.

http://www.c4caraudio.com/mpgs/downloads...20Data.pdf

There are several basic methods to control amperage and a combination of them will be the best option. First, if you want to continue to use your basic two electrode model, you must control the amperage with an external source. A pulse width modulator will work. With this you must continually monitor the amperage and manually adjust to keep it where you want which is not really practical for daily use in a car. Another simple method of amp control is to wire your generator in series with another load like your headlights. The amperage will never exceed the amp requirement of the external load even if the two electrodes were to direct short together. For your generator the headlights will be too much of a load as they will draw ~10amps or more. There are electronic circuits you can make to automatically monitor the amperage and adjust accordingly. I would not go to this effort for the generator you currently have. Use it for testing and educational purposes for now but if you want to use this in a car you will need to build a much more efficient model.

The best option is to make a series plate design like Rick was talking about above. This consists of multiple plates where only two of them are actually wired to your power source. The center plates are neutral or "floating" and are isolated with only the electrolyte between them. The current is forced to pass through the electrolyte through each plate until it reaches the opposite end terminal. Voltage drops by approximately 1.5-2 volts per plate so by using 2 end plates and 6 neutral plates you use the 12-14 volts much more efficiently and the heat generated drops significantly. The trick to making a series plate generator is isolating the plates. You can't just make the plate assembly in drop it into a jar of electrolyte. If the current can pass around the neutral plates to reach the other end electrode it doesn't pass through the neutral plates and you still just have a 2 electrode "parallel" design. The outer edges of the plate assembly must be sealed. Most people have a small 1/8" or so hole in each plate to keep the electrolyte level even between the plates. You will still need amperage control but amp runoff will not be nearly as bad.

To make a long story short, if your generator generates too much heat it is inefficient and it will be difficult to get good results in a car with it. Even if you control the amps with a PWM or other means, you are still wasting a lot of energy to produce gas.


You seem to know a lot about this technology so I wanted to ask you. Is there a correlation between hho gas and increase gas mileage? It seems from the forums that the guys with only 2 parrallel plates (Wulfram) or 4 parallel plates (S-10 Hybrid) are getting good results. I have seen some sort of trend that if you produce to much gas you do not get an increase in gas mileage. From your experience have you seen this trend? Is there an optimum ratio?
05-30-2008 08:26 PM
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Fatman1 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Electrolyzer problem
It seems that alot depends on the car and how well the generator is made. My experience is mosty trying and testing things out. Some people having good luck with buying them. Some dont. Just need to find a place to jump in and git er done:-)
05-31-2008 08:30 AM
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