Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Enhancer Voltage
Author Message
dktool Offline
Member
***

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul 2009
Reputation: 0
Post: #1
Enhancer Voltage
Hi Mike,
I was looking at your schematics for simple enhancer circuits, is there any advantage to reducing the 5 volt supply to the map sensor verses reducing the output signal voltage from it ?
How much of a voltage reduction is generally required ?
I realize there is no across the board answer to that question, just in the ball park.
I have a 95' Geo Metro 3 cylinder 5 speed, I currently get 40 MPG city and of course I want more !

Thanks for the info.
07-31-2009 12:22 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mike Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 2,023
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 7
Post: #2
RE: Enhancer Voltage
I actually don't know the percentages. But either circuit will work fine. I don't know that there's a particular advantage to either one.

In either case the pot, if turned all the way up, will produce no change to the signal. Then as you gradually change the pot, the signal is proportionately reduced going to the computer. If you have a scan gauge or other OBDII reader, you can observe these changes as you make them.

You're going to want to reduce the apparent air flow into your engine to compensate for your HHO. But if you have any drivability issues or lack of horsepower, then you have adjusted it too far and need to back it off. When you are done, you shouldn't be able to perceive any change to when your car had no mods.

[Image: signature.gif]
Visit Our Documents Page
07-31-2009 12:57 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dktool Offline
Member
***

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul 2009
Reputation: 0
Post: #3
RE: Enhancer Voltage
(07-31-2009 12:57 PM)mike Wrote:  I actually don't know the percentages. But either circuit will work fine. I don't know that there's a particular advantage to either one.

In either case the pot, if turned all the way up, will produce no change to the signal. Then as you gradually change the pot, the signal is proportionately reduced going to the computer. If you have a scan gauge or other OBDII reader, you can observe these changes as you make them.

You're going to want to reduce the apparent air flow into your engine to compensate for your HHO. But if you have any drivability issues or lack of horsepower, then you have adjusted it too far and need to back it off. When you are done, you shouldn't be able to perceive any change to when your car had no mods.

I don't have an HHO system, I am only trying to lean out the mixture to squeeze a few more MPG and clean up the tailpipe. I will also be installing an O2 extender to help fool the ECM.
This is an OBD 1 system
Is what I am trying to do sound useful to you, or am I chasing my tail ?
07-31-2009 01:34 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mike Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 2,023
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 7
Post: #4
RE: Enhancer Voltage
Well, we don't usually recommend leaning the fuel mix without using some other fuel combustion enhancement. You will most definitely raise your NOx emissions dramatically. You also run the risk of burning valves or pistons. And finally, your fuel savings will not be all that great.

Next, the extenders don't do any good. In fact, by pulling the sensor back out of the exhaust stream, they will likely shorten the life span of the sensors. But its a myth that they actually make the engine run leaner. I don't know how these things are still being sold for this purpose, but they just don't do the job.

When we use devices to lean the air fuel mix, we only use them with a device that improves combustion efficiency. There are a number of technologies that can achieve this, but HHO is one of the most popular. But whatever device is used, if it improves the combustion of the petroleum based fuel, then it will cause the exhaust to appear leaner than it really is. This causes the computer to richen the mix incorrectly. The whole point of the EFIEs and MAP enhancers and all the rest of it, is to compensate for this factor. Its the HHO that is fooling the computer, not the EFIE. All we are trying to do is to make the computer run correctly. We're not trying to make it run lean. We're trying to make it not run too rich.

So when you use these device by themselves, you are doing something that wasn't intended. And I don't think you'll have very good results. But if you do it, please post here and let us know about it.

[Image: signature.gif]
Visit Our Documents Page
07-31-2009 03:01 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
dktool Offline
Member
***

Posts: 3
Joined: Jul 2009
Reputation: 0
Post: #5
RE: Enhancer Voltage
(07-31-2009 03:01 PM)mike Wrote:  Well, we don't usually recommend leaning the fuel mix without using some other fuel combustion enhancement. You will most definitely raise your NOx emissions dramatically. You also run the risk of burning valves or pistons. And finally, your fuel savings will not be all that great.

Next, the extenders don't do any good. In fact, by pulling the sensor back out of the exhaust stream, they will likely shorten the life span of the sensors. But its a myth that they actually make the engine run leaner. I don't know how these things are still being sold for this purpose, but they just don't do the job.

When we use devices to lean the air fuel mix, we only use them with a device that improves combustion efficiency. There are a number of technologies that can achieve this, but HHO is one of the most popular. But whatever device is used, if it improves the combustion of the petroleum based fuel, then it will cause the exhaust to appear leaner than it really is. This causes the computer to richen the mix incorrectly. The whole point of the EFIEs and MAP enhancers and all the rest of it, is to compensate for this factor. Its the HHO that is fooling the computer, not the EFIE. All we are trying to do is to make the computer run correctly. We're not trying to make it run lean. We're trying to make it not run too rich.

So when you use these device by themselves, you are doing something that wasn't intended. And I don't think you'll have very good results. But if you do it, please post here and let us know about it.

Thanks Mike,
Everything you said has validated my gut feeling after reading up on these issues some.
The only exception was your take on the O2 extenders, no one else has stated point blank that they are snake oil. I personally was headed toward that conclusion, you just gave me a push.
My only intent is to lean the mixture a little, not push it too far. I figure for the cost of a pot and resister and of course, the tinker time is free, I will experiment.
Back in the old days I would re-jet the carburetor, you know, that thing that sat on the intake manifold and was full of gas.....what a concept.
So basically, I hope to re-jet on the fly by turning a knob. We'll see.
I will post my results, good or bad.
Thanks for you time and knowledge.

Dean
07-31-2009 04:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
colchiro Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,265
Joined: Feb 2008
Reputation: 11
Post: #6
RE: Enhancer Voltage
There's been about 2 or 3 people that said extenders worked for them, a butt-load who said they didn't and several who said they hurt mileage. Since they usually have tapered-seat and o2's have a butt-seat (like on a spark plug), often you end up with an exhaust leak that can cause problems down the road. Since an extender moves the o2 away from the exhaust flow, installing two may shorten the life of the heater, since the heater may need to run more to keep it warm.

I tried them once and found no gain in mileage and possibly a slight loss.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-31-2009 04:59 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mike Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 2,023
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 7
Post: #7
RE: Enhancer Voltage
As a note, I don't really think of extenders as "snake oil", which I associate with dishonest dealings. I just think that lots of folks actually think they work, and are just misinformed.

[Image: signature.gif]
Visit Our Documents Page
08-03-2009 10:29 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
JET USA Offline
Member
***

Posts: 130
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #8
RE: Enhancer Voltage
Hi Mike. I agree with your statements. I haven't given up yet.
between projects I have been working on building a couple of dry cells.

I welcome anyone to look at my site at
http://waterworks4fuel.com

http://Jet-USA.com
"Those who say" " It cannot be done"
"should get out of the way of those who are doing it"[/size][/align]
10-13-2009 12:52 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)