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H2 production membranes
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staugur Offline
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Post: #1
H2 production membranes
Can't decide what kind of membrane to try.Nafion and Celgard are too expensive and i'm not sure tyvek can pass enough current.i was browsing a glassfiber site and noticed a reasonably priced carbon fiber/graphite blend with a pretty tight weave.It states it's conductive and looks tight enough to hold the bubbles back.Anyone tried this or have any thoughts on it? It would be possible to make removable plates by just applying resin around the edges.Incidentally I have HHO series cell I'm working on,3 plates per seven cells.Getting really good production but it just seems that straight H2 is the way to go.screwing with EFIES and mafs and mats wouldn't be necessary if you could just dump the O2.
09-08-2008 01:55 PM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #2
RE: H2 production membranes
staugur Wrote:Can't decide what kind of membrane to try.Nafion and Celgard are too expensive and i'm not sure tyvek can pass enough current.i was browsing a glassfiber site and noticed a reasonably priced carbon fiber/graphite blend with a pretty tight weave.It states it's conductive and looks tight enough to hold the bubbles back.Anyone tried this or have any thoughts on it? It would be possible to make removable plates by just applying resin around the edges.Incidentally I have HHO series cell I'm working on,3 plates per seven cells.Getting really good production but it just seems that straight H2 is the way to go.screwing with EFIES and mafs and mats wouldn't be necessary if you could just dump the O2.

I will try and remember to ask around work tomorrow. There are a few Electrochemists that I work with that are working on battery projects that would know some others.

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09-08-2008 04:31 PM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: H2 production membranes
staugur Wrote:Can't decide what kind of membrane to try.Nafion and Celgard are too expensive and i'm not sure tyvek can pass enough current.i was browsing a glassfiber site and noticed a reasonably priced carbon fiber/graphite blend with a pretty tight weave.It states it's conductive and looks tight enough to hold the bubbles back.Anyone tried this or have any thoughts on it? It would be possible to make removable plates by just applying resin around the edges.Incidentally I have HHO series cell I'm working on,3 plates per seven cells.Getting really good production but it just seems that straight H2 is the way to go.screwing with EFIES and mafs and mats wouldn't be necessary if you could just dump the O2.
Don not use carbon, straight fiberglass. Carbon is electrically conductive and will act like a neutral. Fiberglass will hold up to electrolytes as well high temps as well. You can resin edges to stiffen them up.
09-08-2008 04:32 PM
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hygear Offline
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RE: H2 production membranes
What about a tight woven nylon mesh? Maybe some kind of nylon filter mesh.Nylon stands up to high temps(have boiled it in the microwave in distilled water for 10 min. with no change)and resists most electrolytes.As long as you can use a mesh tight enough so that O2 gas can't pass through.Not sure how many microns that would be ,but I'm sure this forum can solve it.
Just another one of Hygears epiphanies,you know take it with a grain of salt LOL

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(This post was last modified: 09-08-2008 06:22 PM by hygear.)
09-08-2008 06:15 PM
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staugur Offline
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Post: #5
RE: H2 production membranes
hygear Wrote:What about a tight woven nylon mesh? Maybe some kind of nylon filter mesh.Nylon stands up to high temps(have boiled it in the microwave in distilled water for 10 min. with no change)and resists most electrolytes.As long as you can use a mesh tight enough so that O2 gas can't pass through.Not sure how many microns that would be ,but I'm sure this forum can solve it.
Just another one of Hygears epiphanies,you know take it with a grain of salt LO

You could be right.I've been looking at NITEX which is a nylon base and available in many sizes down to 16 microns.I just realised that theres a good chance of shorting out the plates using graphite as well as it acting as a neutral.i think I'm going to try a 20 micron nylon mesh,it's not so expensive and seems to resist most chemicals.i will let you know how i get on.
09-08-2008 06:38 PM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #6
RE: H2 production membranes
Anyone have any idea how what micron mesh would prevent O2 bubble production from passing through to H2 side of an H2 cell.(did that play out right?)

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09-08-2008 06:48 PM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: H2 production membranes
hygear Wrote:Anyone have any idea how what micron mesh would prevent O2 bubble production from passing through to H2 side of an H2 cell.(did that play out right?)
One micron is 39 millionth of an inch. The human hair is about 15 microns. So the tighter the better. Thats why I lean to fiberglass its woven like a cloth very tight can't even see through it.
09-08-2008 07:15 PM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #8
RE: H2 production membranes
jjb2888 Wrote:
hygear Wrote:Anyone have any idea how what micron mesh would prevent O2 bubble production from passing through to H2 side of an H2 cell.(did that play out right?)
One micron is 39 millionth of an inch. The human hair is about 15 microns. So the tighter the better. Thats why I lean to fiberglass its woven like a cloth very tight can't even see through it.

Ok let me rephrase the question:What is the micron measurement of an O2 bubble after releasing itself from the stainless steel plate in either HHO or H2 cell.
INQUIRING MINDS NEED TO KNOW!

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(This post was last modified: 09-08-2008 07:50 PM by hygear.)
09-08-2008 07:48 PM
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TimThe Scooper Offline
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Post: #9
RE: H2 production membranes
Quote: Ok let me rephrase the question:What is the micron measurement of an O2 bubble after releasing itself from the stainless steel plate in either HHO or H2 cell.
INQUIRING MINDS NEED TO KNOW!

I think the only way to measure the bubbles would be through trial and error, or at lest keeping track of your measuring results. It seems like the bubble sizes vary depending on several factors, so it may be difficult to measure accurately with limited means. We would have to figure out how many oxygen or hydrogen atoms are in the average bubble. All I know so far is that an atom of H is about .00012 microns and an atom of O is about .00014 microns. Something else I'm checking into is ceramic membranes used for gas separation. Most are high temp and corrosion resistant. Again, it may take a little trial and error, but if we can find the correct size of porosity we could simply use lexan (or similar partition) with an opening cut the same size as the plates and attach the membrane to it. That way we could keep the gap to an optimum proximity to the plates and still keep the gasses separated while allowing the flow of electrolyte. Then again, perhaps a nylon stocking will work just as good! I'll keep you posted.Big Grin
09-09-2008 12:18 AM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #10
RE: H2 production membranes

I think the only way to measure the bubbles would be through trial and error, or at lest keeping track of your measuring results. It seems like the bubble sizes vary depending on several factors, so it may be difficult to measure accurately with limited means. We would have to figure out how many oxygen or hydrogen atoms are in the average bubble. All I know so far is that an atom of H is about .00012 microns and an atom of O is about .00014 microns. Something else I'm checking into is ceramic membranes used for gas separation. Most are high temp and corrosion resistant. Again, it may take a little trial and error, but if we can find the correct size of porosity we could simply use lexan (or similar partition) with an opening cut the same size as the plates and attach the membrane to it. That way we could keep the gap to an optimum proximity to the plates and still keep the gasses separated while allowing the flow of electrolyte. Then again, perhaps a nylon stocking will work just as good! I'll keep you posted.Big Grin
[/quote]

Ceramic would work,I mix my KOH in a thick ceramic bowl because the heat generated when first mixed with distilled water is intense.It's shown no sign of any problems even when I left KOH for a period of time(forgot to rinse out bowl for a couple of days)
Have you located any sources for this material?

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09-09-2008 12:57 AM
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