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H2 production membranes
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visek Offline
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Post: #11
RE: H2 production membranes
jjb2888 Wrote:Don not use carbon, straight fiberglass. Carbon is electrically conductive and will act like a neutral. Fiberglass will hold up to electrolytes as well high temps as well. You can resin edges to stiffen them up.

Fiberglass cloth...easy to find in an auto parts store...resin would stiffen and stop fraying at edges. Can also find a non woven mat type material.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2008 03:54 AM by visek.)
09-09-2008 03:52 AM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #12
RE: H2 production membranes
visek Wrote:
jjb2888 Wrote:Don not use carbon, straight fiberglass. Carbon is electrically conductive and will act like a neutral. Fiberglass will hold up to electrolytes as well high temps as well. You can resin edges to stiffen them up.

Fiberglass cloth...easy to find in an auto parts store...resin would stiffen and stop fraying at edges. Can also find a non woven mat type material.
Not sure if fiberglass would work.I worked with fiberglass about 7 years and even using 1 1/2 oz. mat with the edges laminated,the part that wasn't would eventually come apart with the sloshing of electrolyte when driving.It will hold it's shape when dry,but the fibers I think would start to come apart under said conditions.There's nothing to hold the glass fibers together in a liquid envirorment,and eventually just become a stringy mess.
This is only my opinion and may differ from others.

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(This post was last modified: 09-09-2008 04:12 AM by hygear.)
09-09-2008 04:10 AM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: H2 production membranes
hygear Wrote:
visek Wrote:
jjb2888 Wrote:Don not use carbon, straight fiberglass. Carbon is electrically conductive and will act like a neutral. Fiberglass will hold up to electrolytes as well high temps as well. You can resin edges to stiffen them up.

Fiberglass cloth...easy to find in an auto parts store...resin would stiffen and stop fraying at edges. Can also find a non woven mat type material.
Not sure if fiberglass would work.I worked with fiberglass about 7 years and even using 1 1/2 oz. mat with the edges laminated,the part that wasn't would eventually come apart with the sloshing of electrolyte when driving.It will hold it's shape when dry,but the fibers I think would start to come apart under said conditions.There's nothing to hold the glass fibers together in a liquid envirorment,and eventually just become a stringy mess.
This is only my opinion and may differ from others.

Non wovens? Never thought of that. Most are very durable in water. I used to work for Kimberly Clark Corp who is one of the largest producers of non wovens. We made all the medical gowns, blankets and even car covers. In my road construction days we used to use a non woven filter fabric it was pretty thick but durable in wet environments as well. It's meant to be buried underground so should hold up in electrolyte rater well but not sure. Disposable diapers are made from this stuff as well we all know the don't decompose in water.
09-09-2008 04:19 AM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #14
RE: H2 production membranes
hygear Wrote:
jjb2888 Wrote:
hygear Wrote:Anyone have any idea how what micron mesh would prevent O2 bubble production from passing through to H2 side of an H2 cell.(did that play out right?)
One micron is 39 millionth of an inch. The human hair is about 15 microns. So the tighter the better. Thats why I lean to fiberglass its woven like a cloth very tight can't even see through it.

Ok let me rephrase the question:What is the micron measurement of an O2 bubble after releasing itself from the stainless steel plate in either HHO or H2 cell.
INQUIRING MINDS NEED TO KNOW!

The width of a doubly bonded oxygen (ie O2) is 121pm (according to wiki). But as a gas, it would follow the ideal gas laws, which are pressure and temperature dependent. If it was at STP, then like all gases, one molecule would occupy the volume of 4.07e-8 cubic micrometers.

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09-09-2008 05:39 AM
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finallyME Offline
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Post: #15
RE: H2 production membranes
So, I talked to some electrochemists about separator membranes, and basically the cheapest is celgard. It is expensive to buy bulk, but you get a lot for the money. But, their recommendations stem from a research environment where something that kinda works, or barely works, or works most of the time, won't give good test data. But, do not fear, ANY porous membrane will work. So, look around for porous membranes and try them out. I am going to try a bunch of stuff, and hopefully get a cheap solution.

Another idea, many times, manufacturers will give samples if you request them. If you don't need very much, this might be best.

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09-09-2008 01:03 PM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #16
RE: H2 production membranes
finallyME Wrote:So, I talked to some electrochemists about separator membranes, and basically the cheapest is celgard. It is expensive to buy bulk, but you get a lot for the money. But, their recommendations stem from a research environment where something that kinda works, or barely works, or works most of the time, won't give good test data. But, do not fear, ANY porous membrane will work. So, look around for porous membranes and try them out. I am going to try a bunch of stuff, and hopefully get a cheap solution.

Another idea, many times, manufacturers will give samples if you request them. If you don't need very much, this might be best.
Did they(electochemists)what material the Celgard was made of?

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09-09-2008 01:29 PM
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Terry_Dodson Offline
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Post: #17
RE: H2 production membranes
Is this a barrier that will let electrons flow and stop the bubbles from mixing to the other side of an H2 generator?
09-09-2008 02:53 PM
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Terry_Dodson Offline
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Post: #18
RE: H2 production membranes
Has anyone thought about Kevlar cloth?
09-09-2008 02:54 PM
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hygear Offline
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Post: #19
RE: H2 production membranes
Terry_Dodson Wrote:Has anyone thought about Kevlar cloth?

Got any specs on the kevlar?

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09-09-2008 02:56 PM
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Terry_Dodson Offline
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Post: #20
RE: H2 production membranes
hygear Wrote:
Terry_Dodson Wrote:Has anyone thought about Kevlar cloth?

Got any specs on the kevlar?

I found this and thought it sounded good:

Kevlar was developed in the early 1960's by Dupont. Assuming the same weight, Kevlar is literally five times stronger than steel. Kevlar fibers also have 43 percent less density than fiberglass. Originally developed to replace steel tire belts, it is an aramid with high strength and notable heat resistance. Kevlar's biggest weakness is its lack of compressive strength.
Why is Kevlar so useful for composites? A few reasons:

Thermal properties
Highly flame resistant
Can handle temperatures to 320 degrees F for extended periods with ease
Significantly lighter than even E-glass
Will not melt (at 800 degress F it begins to decompose
09-09-2008 03:17 PM
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