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HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
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KoiDude Offline
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Post: #1
Cool HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Long time listener, first time poster...

So, I've been experimenting with a number of configurations, cell (plate pair) quantities and sizes, and electrolyte concentrations and I think I've got a workable set-up.

Before I get into the as-built set-up, I had a couple of assumptions and theories to work from - all based on a number of sources (this forum included):

1. HHO production is directly related to Amperage.
a. More Amps = More HHO
b. Fewer Ohms = More Amps (at a constant voltage) See Ohms law
c. e.g., lower resistance = raise amperage = increase HHO production

2. Relatively high cell resistance, when placed in parallel, will produce an exponentially lower total resistance value (I'll get into this in a bit)

3. Cell surface area is bell-curved to HHO production.
a. At a constant voltage, calculate 0.5 Amps per sq inch of surface area *up to about 14 sq inches (per plate) at 13.55 VDC
A 3" X 5" (less the area of the holes and other covered areas) per steel plate is about the top-end in my experience.

Ok, so what I've done is build 3 distinct cell sets:

(2) 3 cell sets - 6 total plates per cell in series
(1) 2 cell set - 4 total plates in series

The cells are then placed parallel to each other in the same electrolyte container: 3 cell - 2 cell - 3 cell

I’ll up the drawings and photos/vids once I’ve finally quit fussing with the system. This is the 3rd prototype (a 3-1-3 configuration)
   
   
   

Now the math... Each 3 cell set has a total resistance (RT) of 1.98 Ohms (this equates to about 0.66 Ohms per cell (R1 + R2 + R3 = RT)

The 2 cell set has a total resistance (RT) of 1.32 Ohms (R1 + R2 = RT)

Now, each of these cell sets were placed in parallel with the others to produce an RT value of 0.55 Ohms

1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 = 1/RT
1/1.98 + 1/1.32+ 1/1.98 = 1/1.8 = 0.55 Ohms

Note that resistance values are directly proportional to electrolyte concentration. I use 1/2 teaspoon of SOH per 1 1/2 quarts (6 cups) distilled water. Also note that I need to reduce voltage per cell slightly to reduce the heat produced when it's running.

At a constant 13.55 VDC and this RT, I draw about 24-25 Amps max

In this configuration, I get about 1 Liter per minute (LPM) production cold, about 1.8 LPM at about 120F. It takes about 15 minutes to get to temp and it WILL go as high as 200F (I shut it down when it gets this high). I'm designing a thermostat controlled cooling system to keep from boiling off the electrolyte.

I’ve installed the prototype in my ’04 Mustang with a 30 Amp rated Lawton PWM and the deluxe Dual EFIE on the inboard O2 sensors, and did a little fiddling with the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor. The jury is still out but it looks like I’ve got an increase of about 2.5 MPG. Not too shabby for a 4.6 liter engine.

So… a success? Well, I’ve managed to keep from blowing up the garage or destroying the engine and I’ve only had one fuse melt-down on me… I’d call that successful.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2008 02:26 PM by KoiDude.)
05-04-2008 12:57 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Heat is a sign that you're not producing Browns gas or are drawing too much current.

What kind of gain to you get at 20 amps max?

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
05-04-2008 05:14 PM
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bandit354 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Heat can be good and bad hho burns faster and more explosive the hotter it is. I usually run between 150-175 degrees at about 15amps, but I am going to be getting a pwm this week heard with the right freq. the gas can be 2.5x more powerful then regular hho gas.
05-04-2008 05:56 PM
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KoiDude Offline
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Post: #4
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Hi Rick,

It's definitely HHO if the explosive energy is an indication. The output is highly energetic when a flame is applied. I thought I might be seeing a significant volume of water vapor vs HHO at first and I suppose that may well be the case the higher the temp goes but at between 110 and 150F, I get good, explosive reactions. (I haven't checked the reaction above 150F. Too concerned about flash boiling the electrolyte to check)

By the way, I've noted that the rate of heat increase is more or less constant at 10 Amps as it is at 20 Amps. It takes about 40 minutes to get to 110F, another 10 or so minutes to 180F. That's all test-bed measurements...

I've found that below about 15 Amps on this latest iteration, the production is moderately below 1 LPM (around 600-800 ccm). 20-25 seems to be the magic amp range.

I've read that the optimal voltage is just under 2 Volts per cell. I forget right off where I read that though or I'd cite it for you. That equates to 8 or 9 cells in series. In this configuration, I calculate I'm applying somewhere around 6.5V and 4.3V per cell. Obviously way too high by that source. I expect thats where the heat is coming from.

I may fiddle with a 5-4-5 configuration if my steel source gets the right grade/gauge. That should bring the voltage drops down to a more manageable level and still maintain the production rates I need for this engine. (less than 1.5 LPM is just not worth the effort)

Another option would be to add some super low Ohm, super high Watt resistors in series to come up with the necessary voltage drops. I don't even know if such a thing even exists. A few fat, nasty induction coils in series maybe? I may fuss with that too.

colchiro Wrote:Heat is a sign that you're not producing Browns gas or are drawing too much current.

What kind of gain to you get at 20 amps max?
05-04-2008 07:26 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #5
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Plain old h2 + o2 will make a nasty explosion too, but doesn't necessarily mean there's Browns gas there.

I'm too tired (or lazy) to read your whole rantBlush, but don't understand the construction of your cell. It looks like you have two (- N N N N +) sections but what's the (+ -) doing in the middle? If that has 12 volts on it, there's a big source of heat.

I would think you could do better with a conventional 11 plate cell (- n n n n + n n n n -), which should run a lot cooler.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2008 07:46 PM by colchiro.)
05-04-2008 07:45 PM
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KoiDude Offline
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Post: #6
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
He Bandit,

Your temp ranges are more or less consistant with what I measure on my rig. As to the optimal burn temp, well... I can only theorize here.

According to the Engineering Toolbox, the flash point for hydrogen is (theoretically) -434F with an auto-ignition temp at 932F. A significant range compared to gasoline with a flash point of -45F and auto-ignition at 532F.

Heating gasoline vapor to enhance the explosion makes intuitive sense... Heating HHO doesn't really seem necessary. It could bear some experimentation though.

As to the PWM, well, I'm reserving judgement on it's utility. About all I can wring out of the PWM is Amps and the ability to meter them on demand. I've run all my prototypes on both the PWM and straight off the alternator and production has been more or less equal. I'm actually wondering if the cost of a PWM is even worth the utility. Of course, I may not be using it properly... It's happened before Blush

bandit354 Wrote:Heat can be good and bad hho burns faster and more explosive the hotter it is. I usually run between 150-175 degrees at about 15amps, but I am going to be getting a pwm this week heard with the right freq. the gas can be 2.5x more powerful then regular hho gas.
05-04-2008 07:58 PM
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mike Offline
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Post: #7
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
There are PWMs that pulse the voltage to the electrolyte in a frequency that will cause a sympathetic vibration of the water molecules, causing them to break apart using less energy. That's the theory. I think Bob Boyce's power supply is designed to do that very thing. Go to http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBo...zer_Plans/ and then download the D9.pdf. I understand you can buy one of his power supplies somewhere, but I haven't chased down a supplier. I've been planning to offer on in my store, if I can ever buy the time to develop one.

One source that talks about Brown's gas production and 2 volts or so max, is George Wiseman's booklet on Brown's Gas, and/or the HyZor booklet. I have both. He definitely mentions that very datum in relation to Brown's gas production vs H2/O2.

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05-04-2008 10:18 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #8
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
I'd like to know where everyone came up with the 2v, 1.8v, and I've seen 1.3v recommended as the optimum voltage for HHO production. And if it was say, 2v, would that be consistent with different amperages? I can't see that.
07-11-2008 04:12 AM
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johnh Offline
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Post: #9
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Gary Wrote:I'd like to know where everyone came up with the 2v, 1.8v, and I've seen 1.3v recommended as the optimum voltage for HHO production. And if it was say, 2v, would that be consistent with different amperages? I can't see that.

The voltages where first calculated by Faraday in about 1830. from then until the early 1900,s there was a lot of hydrogen electrolysers until cheap oil pushed it into the niche market it has been in since

this is a list of some of the electrolyte voltages from a 1911 book
Found in an old Hydrogen chemistry book

Voltages for continuous electrolysis

Electrolyte Minimum Voltage
Cadmium Chloride 1.78
Cadmium Nitrate 1.98
Cadmium Sulphate 2.03
Hydrochloric Acid 1.31
Nitric Acid 1.69
Phosphoric Acid 1.70
Potasium Hydroxide 1.67
Sodium Hydroxide 1.69
Silver Nitrate 0.70
Zinc Sulphate 2.35


NOTES: Some of these electrolytes may be dangerous to your health or to some plastics.

These are not recomendations just information

This does not mean that any electrolyte will use less power than any other .. Just that for maximum efficiency the voltage should be kept close to the minimum voltage.

If the electrolyser starts acting like a electroplater it will use the power to shift the plate material from the cathode to the anode instead of making hydrogen. This depends on the plate metal and the electrolyte, so if you are having trouble not getting the output you should, try changing electrolyte or changing the material in the plates.

Regards
John
07-11-2008 05:11 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #10
RE: HHO/Tuning on '04 Mustang GT
Good enough for me. 2v or less it is.
07-11-2008 08:41 AM
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