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HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
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wingspan99 Offline
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Post: #1
HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
My Forester has always gotten 20mpg which is miserable for a 2.5ltr engine so I built a HHO booster with a -NNN+ config using five stainless plates about 3"x8", set inside a Smacks-type enclosure of 4" ABS plastic. I get about 1.1ltr/min gas flow on baking soda electrolyte (soon to be KOH) and 24amps. I know it's not the most efficient out there but it produces a lot more gas than many other puny systems out there that probably only put out .1ltr/min, based on the size of the electrodes and spacing in a mason jar.
I have added a 3/4" spacer to the front O2 sensor, which is located in the front CAT. I have a rear cat also with another O2 sensor unmodified. I suspect the computer is still seeing it as a lean mixture and simply adding more gas. I suspect I need an EFIE for the front O2 sensor but I have put so much time and effort and money into this already, I don't want to throw more money into it without knowing I'll have a payoff. The person selling spacers also sells EFIE's maybe I need to revisit them? I like the idea of modifying the oxygen sensor output more than manipulating the MAS or MAT. I've already run into the issue of having to disconnect my HHO booster for maintenance temporarily but not being able to instantly remove the O2 sensor spacer so who knows how it's running with that spacer in there? -Tom in Colorado Springs, CO
05-01-2008 08:28 AM
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grusson Offline
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RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
hello wingspan,
ive done some research on the 02 sensor thing, and to the best of my knowledge, moving the o2 sensor out of the exhaust stream will tell the computer you have less oxygen in the system and trigger a rich mixture signal, causing the ecm to lean out the mix. sounds like it may be good to run one of these things all the time. hho or not!
i hope i'm not thinking backwards, but that sounds like a cheap bonus!
maybe some other folks can chime in, and clarify this one a little more. it may be a must have. i wish i knew the baseline that one could expect from an o2 spacer setup.
GR
05-01-2008 09:59 AM
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wulfram Offline
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RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
Don't diss the mason jar too much.. it's doing wonders for me. Wink
(Mason jar with plate-design that is)
As for the EFIE. I can personally vouch for the technical support you'll receive if you purchase one here. I haven't actually hooked it up yet. Gotta wait til monday now.
Good luck!
05-01-2008 03:41 PM
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wingspan99 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
I'm not too convinced that the spacer will really help in my Forester because the O2 sensor is located in the CAT rather than in an exhaust pipe with fast flow past it. I really don't understand how the spacer works, the same exhaust is in the O2 sensor still, maybe it's a little cooler. I think the EFIE is probably going to work better.
05-01-2008 05:38 PM
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wingspan99 Offline
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RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
I'm not down on Mason jars themselves, just the electrodes used on one of the popular models. It interestingly never mentions how much HHO it produces. How much HHO flow can you get from two stainless 1/8" wire spirals that are maybe 2 feet long each, spaced 1" apart at 13.5v straight DC? I spaced my plates about 1/16" apart, and that draws twice as much current as 1/8" spacing. I kinda like the mason jars actually, they're cheap and they let excess heat radiate out pretty quickly, unlike black ABS which has an almost foam cellular structure in the 4" pipe material. Maybe the spirals cancel out or eliminate eddy currents, but isn't HHO gas production basically a function of plate area and current? The formula for surface area of those stainless 1/8" wires comes out to 9.423 sq inches of surface area per wire x 2 wires = 18.846 sq inches. One plate of my unit has 48sq inches of surface area, and I have five plates for a total of 240 sq inches. No wonder their unit only draws 2-3amps. All that said I have not tried those units, only analyzed the few pictures available and the few stats available, such as amperage. I know my unit is not very efficient but at least it produces 1.1ltr/min of HHO, which I still feel is way below what will be required to effect a change in combustion considering that my engine uses 2500 liters of air per minute at 2000rpm, and mixes one liter of HHO with the air plus the gasoline vapors (which would be 1/14.7 of that, or about 170 liters of vaporized gasoline). I'm sure I've calculated something wrong but adding four tenths of one percent (.4%) HHO gas and affecting the efficiency of combustion would be almost a miracle. I really hope the miracle is true though. -Tom in Colorado Springs, CO
(This post was last modified: 05-01-2008 06:08 PM by wingspan99.)
05-01-2008 06:05 PM
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96FordE250 Offline
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RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
wingspan99 Wrote:I'm not down on Mason jars themselves, just the electrodes used on one of the popular models. It interestingly never mentions how much HHO it produces. How much HHO flow can you get from two stainless 1/8" wire spirals that are maybe 2 feet long each, spaced 1" apart at 13.5v straight DC? I spaced my plates about 1/16" apart, and that draws twice as much current as 1/8" spacing. I kinda like the mason jars actually, they're cheap and they let excess heat radiate out pretty quickly, unlike black ABS which has an almost foam cellular structure in the 4" pipe material. Maybe the spirals cancel out or eliminate eddy currents, but isn't HHO gas production basically a function of plate area and current? The formula for surface area of those stainless 1/8" wires comes out to 9.423 sq inches of surface area per wire x 2 wires = 18.846 sq inches. One plate of my unit has 48sq inches of surface area, and I have five plates for a total of 240 sq inches. No wonder their unit only draws 2-3amps. All that said I have not tried those units, only analyzed the few pictures available and the few stats available, such as amperage. I know my unit is not very efficient but at least it produces 1.1ltr/min of HHO, which I still feel is way below what will be required to effect a change in combustion considering that my engine uses 2500 liters of air per minute at 2000rpm, and mixes one liter of HHO with the air plus the gasoline vapors (which would be 1/14.7 of that, or about 170 liters of vaporized gasoline). I'm sure I've calculated something wrong but adding four tenths of one percent (.4%) HHO gas and affecting the efficiency of combustion would be almost a miracle. I really hope the miracle is true though. -Tom in Colorado Springs, CO
Tom,
I was wondering the same thing. How much HHO does it take to make a difference? Have you seen any improvement in your vehicle? I saw no improvement in my 4.9L van using a .8 liter/min smack's style booster. I would like to see this work too, but before I build a higher capacity booster I'd like to hear from someone whose had success and what capacity booster they have. If anyone can drop a word, please do.
05-02-2008 03:30 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #7
RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
Check out wulfram's setup since he's getting some of the best results.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
05-02-2008 07:13 PM
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wingspan99 Offline
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RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
colchiro Wrote:Check out wulfram's setup since he's getting some of the best results.
His results suggest the O2 sensor output needs modification. His results are amazing considering it's only two light switch plates. I have the equivalent of 12 light switch plates worth of SS.
I've had my HHO generator on my car about a week and I know I don't want to wrap my O2 sensor with foil, even if that does indeed work, because I've had several small problems that necessitated turning my HHO unit off, and with my sensor wrapped up it would cause my car to run extremely lean on gasoline alone, which would damage my valves. I think I need an EFIE to modify the sensor output, and an EGT (exhaust gas temperature) sensor in the exhaust manifold and gauge in the cockpit (also known as an Air/Fuel Ratio gauge, which doesn't measure air or fuel, just heat) plus an ammeter readable from the drivers seat. I just started using KOH yesterday, I hope it runs cleaner than baking soda. My bubbler needs a vacuum valve between it and the generator, the bubbler's electrolyte get's sucked into the generator when I shut down, and I don't trust check valves to flow freely enough. Maybe a PCV valve used backwards to allow suction into the line but closed when running pressure might be just the ticket. See the latest video from ZeroFossilFuels video #85 on youtube for a better understanding of his solution. (He is at http://www.youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel) It has zero resistance to flow unlike a checkvalve. There's a big difference in production between a slight vacuum in the generator vs. a slight pressure in the generator. Besides those darn check valves are hard to find. By the way, kudos to Mike for creating this forum.
-Tom
05-04-2008 05:01 AM
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wingspan99 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
[/quote]Tom,
I was wondering the same thing. How much HHO does it take to make a difference? Have you seen any improvement in your vehicle? I saw no improvement in my 4.9L van using a .8 liter/min smack's style booster. I would like to see this work too, but before I build a higher capacity booster I'd like to hear from someone whose had success and what capacity booster they have. If anyone can drop a word, please do.
[/quote]

I have not seen any improvement in my mileage, but I only used a spacer on my O2 sensor to move it out 3/4". I didn't think that would work very well and it hasn't. I'm convinced I need to modify the O2 sensor output because my engine computer is merely enriching the fuel mixture and negating the gains.
One thing I'm sure of is that whatever it takes to get a 2.5 liter engine more efficient, it will take more than twice that to get a 4.9 or 5 liter engine more efficient, and given the amount of aerodynamic drag of a van or SUV, gains will be much less than the aerodynamic little econo-cars. An SUV is so darn inefficient, just look at the new hybrid Tahoe, it gets a paltry 21mpg. I started with my generator installed in my Suburban, then realized that it was a waste of time so I took it all out before I even started to drive it. I swapped cars with my wife, she drives only 10 miles a day, and now I'm experimenting on this Subaru. I know what you're thinking, you could save a lot more money if you get your van more efficient because your gas bill is so much higher so any % savings would be a higher dollar amount. Yes, that's true. The first thing I was going to do with the Suburban after the booster, was to install higher flowing exhaust headers and a second muffler. It has cast iron headers that should only be used to hold a bass boat in position over a lunker hole. A new set of tubular headers was $200. Synthetic oil was next, that will reduce internal friction quite a bit. But I wanted to increase my gas mileage by way more than 4mpg on the Suburban, that would still be very expensive to drive on sales appointments. -Tom
05-04-2008 05:21 AM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: HHO on 99 Subaru Forester
Tom, we had link for check valves in the last couple days.... a big variety and some were very low resistance. I agree on the need for low resistance. Here it is... Bubbler Problem.

I agree on the tinfoil, too fragile IMO. I'll try everything else first.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2008 05:25 AM by colchiro.)
05-04-2008 05:22 AM
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