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HHO woes
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #1
Toungue HHO woes
colchiro I think I have been hijacking some of the threads lately..pls excuse me.. im really stressing

I am only using the first click on the d17 efie (only 0.050v boost) I still seem to be in open loop..
I tried 2 clicks (100mv and 4 clicks 200mv) and had similar results

I know because my economy always falls to 13.5ltrs/100km (21mpg).. Without HHO I get 12.5l/100 (23mpg)..
The best I have ever had with HHO has been 12l/100 (24mpg) which was without IAT mods and 160mv on a simple battery type booster efie.

I also have a pot in parallel with the IAT set at 8.5kohm which calculates to about a 15degC increase. I have detached the air funnel so the air is coming from inside the engine compartment.

Although my O2 seems to be operating properly ie. jumps to 0.9 after revving the motor, etc. I know when I measured the resistance for the heater element it was not to spec.

Do you think a new O2 sensor would make any difference ?
06-25-2009 01:58 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: HHO woes
I hadn't even noticed. Best to keep all your info in one thread tho so people helping you don't have to search for you.

How many miles on your o2's? They need to be replaced before 100,000 miles.

Sounds like you don't have an efficient cell or have leaks. You can check for leaks with soapy water and a brush, looking for bubbles. You should also measure it for output. At least 1 LPM is needed per liter of engine displacement. I suspect that's your problem.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
(This post was last modified: 06-25-2009 03:35 AM by colchiro.)
06-25-2009 03:34 AM
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #3
RE: HHO woes
Thanks colchiro
Not sure how old the o2 sensor is but I have about 240,000km on the clock and the O2 in the car is an aftermarket so I know its been replaced at least once.

The problem I have is that no matter what setting I have on the efie I cannot get the car to even sound different, let alone cough or splutter...

Will check for leaks.. I am only estimating but possibly about 1.5ltrs/min around 18 amps so it is on the low side. I had around 2 ltrs/min at just over 30 amps but I felt this was too high a load for the motor.
06-25-2009 03:50 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #4
RE: HHO woes
Some vehicles don't sputter, they just go into open loop and since they usually run great in open loop, the first symptom is decreased mileage.

Where are you connecting your efie, at the sensor or some wire you found on the harness (via a manual)?

What kind of cell design, wet cell or dry cell?

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
06-25-2009 04:22 PM
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jbalat Offline
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Wink RE: HHO woes
I got under the car and took the signal from the computer side of the o2 sensor. I confirmed I had the right wires by monitoring on a multimeter and small oscilliscope then checked the ecu to make sure the signal was getting there also

Its a home made Smack Gen II that I have split in half and added an extra plate. This is what it looked like when I made it but now its covered in goop
[Image: splitgen2a.jpg]
(This post was last modified: 06-26-2009 05:19 AM by jbalat.)
06-26-2009 04:04 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #6
RE: HHO woes
Nice lookin' cell. If I had one like that, it'd be hanging on the wall, not hidden my my vehicle. (The red background doesn't hurt any either.)

Ok sounds like you probably have the efie installed correctly and a good cell. What size engine? Are you getting at least 1 lpm per liter engine displacement?

Maybe you can roughly estimate the miles on the o2, if the previous owner installed the o2 sensor. Mike swears that's fixed a lot of marginal installations. The digital efie works better with marginal o2's, but it's still best to upgrade the sensor (garbage in-garbage out). We start to think about replacing them by 60k miles and definitely by 100k miles, so maybe time to replace them anyway.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
06-26-2009 12:41 PM
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #7
RE: HHO woes
Ok checked for leaks and none found - good start

I have a 3L engine and possibly pumping out around 1.5L/min although I read the D17 document and it mentioned mpg gains with as low as 0.6L/min of HHO as long as the engine was properly tuned

If you check out my ecu pic
[Image: ecu3.jpg]
then wire 3 (WB) at the MAF is the signal and wire 5 (B) represents the ground but is shared with O2, CTS and internally with IAT (wire 6 RB).

Using an oscilliscope I logged some values from wire 3 to Ground.

A square wave was produced at all RPM varying between 3.78 and 3.92V Peak to Peak.

At 600rpm freq=36-39 Hz
1000 rpm f=50 Hz
1500 rpm f=62 Hz
2000 rpm f=83 Hz
2500 rpm f=111 Hz

Anyway the funny thing was that as per the fuelsaver document I used a variable pot on wire 5 (black) and the signal frequency did not change at any setting b/w 0 ohm and 10k ohm?

Any ideas how to shift this frequency curve a little lower ?

P.S. Thanks for the compliment regarding the cell Wink
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2009 01:12 PM by jbalat.)
06-29-2009 04:17 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #8
RE: HHO woes
My wife likes shiny things, I like them colorful. Wink

Sounds like a freq-based MAF sensor, which is referenced in my Tuning for Mileage link and the theory behind it might be covered in my Autoshop link under "pressure" or "air-flow" sensors. I don't recall.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
06-29-2009 12:33 PM
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #9
RE: HHO woes
Yep found my MAF unit here on page 7. Its called a Karmen Vortex Airflow Meter. Thanks for the info.

[Image: freq.jpg]

Just thought I would plot the data... Hey its linear !!
[Image: mafchart.jpg]

Still looking for a solution to modify the frequency.. Now subscribed to the Parallax forums, my post is here.. I will keep my fingers crossed

If any one has any ideas or youtube vid's then please post

JB
(This post was last modified: 06-30-2009 12:59 AM by jbalat.)
06-30-2009 12:29 AM
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Alttech Offline
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Post: #10
RE: HHO woes
I have been struggling with this same problem, as many are. I wanted to try an adjustable choke (electronic, not mechanical) to modify the signal, but haven't gotten that far yet. The only way that I have successfully modified the signal to date was to either physically enlarge the throat of the intake, or restrict the airflow across the film. The GM's have a nice screen in front of the MAF that I place foil tape on to block some of the airflow to the sensor. It has to be small though, and it is a tedious process to get the right size and placement.
I have found some correlation between the MAF and the MAP, I can get the MAF to drastically change the fuel delivery by altering the MAP, but the ECU is what changes the MAF, and it takes some driving time for this process to make the changes. I think you're on the right track by trying to modify the frequency. I wish I had more time to experiment with it.

Bill
06-30-2009 02:36 AM
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