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Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
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fatalshock Offline
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Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
Hello, all! My name is Ray and I'm obviously new here. I like to start by saying that in the following thread, I am by no means questioning the benefits of a hydrogen supplemented automotive setup, but I have been doing some research on this matter and am appalled at how people are approaching the tuning of a system like this. I apologize if this site is directly funded or related in some way with the producer of the EFIE module, as I am in no way debunking, or saying this unit is inferior to anything, as I have no personal experience with it. I would, however, like to offer some proven information about other various tuning options to optimize system such as this that could be used in conjunction with a component such as the EFIE.

There are only a hand full of proven, correct methods for modifying a cars fuel system and gathering/modifying the information your cars ECU (brain) recieves and divulges. Firstly, I like to start with the O2 sensor. There are a number of "universal power increasing chips" available from less than credible manufactures on places like ebay. What thes chips do is modify the signal from the cars MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor) or MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor) to change what the cars brain "sees" thus determining ignition timing, fuel delivery, and various engagement of other apparatus' dictating how the car runs. These are unreliable units for the simple reason that there is no adjust ability. Octane of fuel, ambient air temps, barometric readings, and other variables are the data these systems read and decipher and they are just that...variables.
I'd now like to turn the discussion over to an application that would directly relate to this topic. I am an avid fan, owner, and tuner of primarily Mitsubishi vehicles. Mainly the 4G63T platform found in the Eclipse, Evolution, and Galant models. When ever a power adder is introduced into these vehicles' powerplant, one or more of those aforementioned variables will change. Example: If one was to add a "cold air intake" onto a vehicle in an attempt to free up some HP and help the motor breath better, he may have adverse effects before anything because there are no supporting modifications. See, a cold air style intake is essentially a smooth round (usually aluminum) pipe with an open, conical air filter element on the end intended to replace the equipment coming from the factory which is usually a convoluted, and baffled piece of mold injected rubber. Since a vehicles MAF sensor is located on the vehicles intake tract, and the housing, or context in which the sensor is being used
has changed, it's no surprise that the variables going to the sensor will also change. Many times the increased size of the aluminum intake piping will result in a better capability to efficiently flow air. The smoother, larger diameter of the piping will cause the sensor to read a decreased incoming air velocity, barometric readings, and even the temperature is now different since the filter is typically exposed to atmospheric air more prevelantly than the cars factory airbox which is typically forced to draw in the engine compartments hotter, less dense air supply. Sometimes this change is even greater than the sensors reading capability, or normal operating range. Obviously this is bad. The car will think there's less air, when in fact there is more, thus it will supply the fuel system with less fuel, leading to less power (efficiency), and potentially damaging lean air fuel conditions. It could even retard or advance the cars timing. That's not something you don't want to have control over! This same scenario could apply to many of the cars various sensors with different add-ons, power makers, gas savers, etc. There's simply too many variables! "Well then how do most people who modify thier motors account for these changes?" The answer is complicated, but there is an answer.

First of all, a narrowband O2 sensor is garbage. When hooked up to a narrowband o2 gauge, the gauge will supply you with nothing molre than an expensive light show. Typically (under stock conditions) they tell a car to be in either open loop or closed loop mode at any given time, and that's it. What that means, exactly, is irrelevant right now, but nonetheless, the info is "fuzzy", and not very accurate but good enough for it's purpose...to work with in stock variables. Now, a wideband O2 sensor can be purchased and adapted to any vehicle. AEM makes a great unit with a gauge and everything. This will tell you EXACTLY your Air Fuel ratio, and will let you know what's going on in there. Another useful tool in data acquisition is an EGT (Exhaust Gas Temp. Gauge/probe). This has been used on aviation intended motors for many years, and the data acquired can be deciphered to determine your A/F situation, since different ratios burn at different temps. I would stick to the trusty Wideband. Okay, now that we know what the O2 readings are, what do we do with that info? Simple. You adjust the various parameters of the cars fuel, timing, etc with a tuning devise. On Mitsubishi 4G63 equipped vehicles there are several options. First, you can buy an SAFC made by Apexi. This works much like the EFIE devise, except it is not attached to the o2 sensor, but to the MAF or MAP sensor. What this allows you to do is adjust the amount of fuel delivery based on RPM. Example; Notice that with your new hydrogen supplement system installed that the vehicle is is showing very lean conditions on the wideband at around 6500rpm? Simply scroll to the 6000-7000rpm range and adjust the fuel delivery up or down until a stoich reading can be found. This unit is great since it will not only work on most any vehicle, but it gives you a lot of adjustability. The downsides are cost ($300+/-), and the fact that this unit will not do much for timing adjustments, but it will pay for itself in time on this type of app.. It's intended for vehicles not HEAVILY modified enough to effect those parameters like timing. I'm not sure where in the spectrum of modifications a hydrogen setup would fall, but I assume it would be low enough for this type of "piggyback" unit, utilizing the original equipment ECU. The next step would be a full standalone computer, opposed to a piggyback tuning devise.
Since units like the Apexi SAFC are essentially "tricking" the cars ECU, some of the modern vehicles can eventually detect inconsistencies in the readings and know something is up. It sees the modified signal as an error, and the car will either run poorly or not at all. Using a full standalone system gives the user adjustability over EVERY engine parameter, and doesn't simply mask the original reading of the sensor. This would be used the same way as the Apexi style unit, but has the flexibility to not only log the results of all the cars sensors over a given operating session, but to come back later and say "oh, timing is off at 2500rpm, and the o2 readings are very lean at 6500rpms..lets just adjust accordingly" Super huh? Yeah! AEM make a full standalone for most modern vehicles, but once again cost is always an issue. Not only are these 1000$ or more, but they also require the use of a PDA or laptop for data retrieval and visual adjustments. Mitsubishi cars are lucky as they have an EPROM style ECU that can be socketed and chipped with the tuning parameters on the factory ECU, and enable use of a proprietary system known as DSMLINK. A much cheaper alternative, but with all the same features. Honda also has this type of setup in many cars in which they can use a tuning system known as CROME. Every different make and model has a designated system that is compatible, you'll just have to ask the performance based guys from a forum based on your particular make and model. They'll let you know what you need. For the technically inclined, there is also the cheapest method of full engine management...Megasquirt. Funny name, great product. This unit comes as basically a bare breadboard and requires you to assemble the unit based on your motor. It works with ANY motor from 1-12 cylinders, and had infinite adjustability.... but that's another story.
Basically, to ensure that a Hydrogen setup on any given vehicle is functioning to the best of it's ability you will need a few things.
1: A tuning devise with datalogging capabilities (or just a wideband)
2: Time on a dyno (Dynamometer) to change the variables, such as HHO delivery, timing, ECt.. This should be done by a tuning professional, and anywhere with a dyno has a tuner that can help.

To do anything less would be irresponsible, neglectful, and damaging to your motor. It could even be very dangerous. The question has been floating around here, "What is the ideal ratio for my _____?" There is NO answer! In the performance world that is called bench racing. It's assuming a set of results based on an untold number of variables. When a Mitsubishi owner asks me, "How many HP will I get from bigger injectors, and an exhaust system?" All I can say is, "Lets get it on the dyno and find out!" Every car (even of the same make and model) has differences from the next. The only way to account for these differences is through data acquisition, and knowing what to do with that data, and being able to accurately adjust these parameters accordingly. PERIOD. While you may not want to run a quarter mile in ten seconds, or do wheelies in you hatchback, the fundamentals learned through performance tuning also have many plausible benefits to the fuel conscious.

I hope I helped at least one person know that they have more options than adjusting the cars throttle cable, and doing silly things to trick the car into thinking it's fuctioning the way it was made to. It's obviously not! While you may think it's better (it is!), you cars computer will be throwing it's hand in the air screaming "DANGER, Will Robinson, DANGER!!"
05-29-2008 01:06 AM
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Atfab Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
Thank you Ray,
Everything you say is true, from a performance point of view. I will also admit that mild performance enhancements can save some gas if you keep your foot out of it.

I believe that most of us would find it hard to justify the expense and trouble to install and adjust a $2700.00 ECU, plus sensors right now. Don’t forget that most people would also have to pay for a professional to do this.

AEM is a great company with every thing a racer or performance car owner might need. But that is the problem too, most of their products for the larger motors or the more popular “street tuners” Most of the older and less performance minded vehicles are not supported.

True they do have some great “universal” electronics but gas prices are going to have to get a lot higher for most of us to consider $2700 + for 2 or 3 cars.

atfab

Atfab
99 S-10 Pickup 2.2L auto, Std cab, Short bed, Alum cap
Stock, Ave. 25.5 MPH
05-29-2008 02:56 AM
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fatalshock Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
Absolutely agreed. I was simply putting out some information that doesn't seem to be discussed very widespread amongst this community. It's a great cause, it's a fun project, and it's innovative as heck, but I'd hate for people to feel limited to what they can do with these systems. Right now it seems a bit more of a "black art" than a proven science. I'm hoping that maybe one day someone will account for all variables and do some extensive testing with everything available to the automotive aftermarket to learn a bit more about what levels of fuel and hho make for the ideal ratios in various applications, and establish some sort of base map of information to base these modification on. Believe me, the owner of a brand new 9mpg Hummer would have just as much interest in this system than the next guy, but to throw on a kit without knowing exactly what it is doing to your brand new $60,000 investment, a couple thousand more to double the fuel economy is not only a wise investment, but a smart one. Hopefully through testing with methods like I have explained above kits could even be established for particular applications that can be self adjusting based on the vehicles current parameters (much like some self adjusting nitrous systems such as the kits available from ZEX.) and maybe eventually even become a dealership installed item. But once again, that's another story.
05-29-2008 07:54 AM
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HerronPerformance Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
I am going to have to sit down and read this and get back to you.....

BUT the first thing we have to remember, this site is not about WOT performance, it is about fuel economy, different ends of the spectrum and in some cases can be accomplished at the same time, if you know how.

http://www.herronperformance.com
05-29-2008 09:11 AM
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HerronPerformance Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
There are alot of issues in this.....
FIRST off, you assume there are tuning (ie software out there to alter the computer tables to get to the end result you are looking for) options for all makes. this is not the case, you have handheld units that place like SCT/Hypertech/etc but they do not allow the person/tuner to alter the tables, the manufacture has already altered the tables they want. Unlike a Tunercat/LT1edit/HPTuners/EFILive, these allow you the tuner to adjust way more tables that anyone should ever be allowed to, ie you can mess some -ish up!!! Now SCT/diablosport has this ability once you become certified.

Second, the mods that most people do externally of the engine, ie bolts ons can be handled by the computer of these vehicles, if they are within range, now some things just are not a good idea, ie a ported MAF on a vehicle works up to a point then becomes a major PITA. You mention "The car will think there's less air, when in fact there is more, thus it will supply the fuel system with less fuel, leading to less power (efficiency), and potentially damaging lean air fuel conditions." Actually the stock computers from the factory are very rich ie SAFE to deal with all the people that might buy said vehicle, and when you lean it out, you will actually gain power but lucky for us most of the new vehicles out there have knock sensors....little device that was put into cars to detect spark knock (lean condition) and therefore they pull out timing and add fuel and keep doing this till the knock counts stop rising and then it adds back the timing and removing fuel back to where it thinks it should be unless it sees knock count rise again, and this can be a viscous cycle. And will say that sometimes there is false knock and you have to deal with that in different ways. most of the time desensitizing the KS, either with crude forms or via PCM/VCM/Computer manipulation.

I do not believe this is what the O2 sensor does in most platforms: "Typically (under stock conditions) they tell a car to be in either open loop or closed loop mode at any given time, and that's it."
The car is first starts in open loop and once certain conditions are met, usually coolant temp and run time it will switch to closed loop to take into account the O2 sensor data and with this data the computer is trying to maintain the pre-programmed stoich AFR of 14.7:1 of a gasoline engine and this is done by changing the pulsewidths to add or subtract fuel. And normally a vehicle stays in closed loop unless you request it to go into Power Enrichment modes, this is commanded based on TPS readings, and ignores the O2 readings. I wont get into the Volumetric Effeciency tables that are there as a back up when air flow is low and I will agree that narrowband O2s are not good to tune with but can tell one if it is richer/leaner than before, the WB is the ultimate tuning tool.

I will have to say I was shocked when I started reading about how these systems are being added and no real watch on AFR with a WB but the more I look and read the more I see that we are lucky to have such sofisticated computers that prevent us from blowing -ish up. ie the knock sensor are our friends in this case....as you will see many are setting up their EFIE with alot of mV's added with ill effects, that is b/c they are too lean, KS is going off and adding fuel and pulling timing, now you see them turning that number down and doing better.

I am going to be putting one of these EFIE O2 adjusters on my minivan next week to test my theory that I learned by tuning GM VCMs with HPTuners. There is a table in the sw that allows you to tell the VCM what mVs the O2s should read at stoich (heck, you can even change stoich if you want....). Stock it comes in at .457 well we pull them back down to 350, that is .100mV difference and should command an actual AFR in the 17:1 range, rather than .457=14.7:1, this alone has shown a 12% increase in MPG, now the Hondas are running in the 20ish range, so is there more room for the GMs??? ANd what is nice is that it is tied to the airflow so once the airflow is in the right area it will command the 17:1 and say you have to get into the throttle some and it gets out of the airflow 'box' it will command whatever other AFR you have set it to, usually leave it stock, and once airflow gets back to where you 'want' it, it commands the 'LEAN CRUISE' as it's called. In our dodge MV there is no other tuning tool released so I will use the EFIE on the O2s and dial in an extra 100mVs and probably keep adding it until the MPGs start falling and then dial it back, i feel safe doing this knowing the KSs have me covered.


fatalshock Wrote:... I would, however, like to offer some proven information about other various tuning options to optimize system such as this that could be used in conjunction with a component such as the EFIE.
There are only a hand full of proven, correct methods for modifying a cars fuel system and gathering/modifying the information your cars ECU (brain) recieves and divulges. Firstly, I like to start with the O2 sensor. There are a number of "universal power increasing chips" available from less than credible manufactures on places like ebay. What thes chips do is modify the signal from the cars MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor) or MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor) to change what the cars brain "sees" thus determining ignition timing, fuel delivery, and various engagement of other apparatus' dictating how the car runs. These are unreliable units for the simple reason that there is no adjust ability. Octane of fuel, ambient air temps, barometric readings, and other variables are the data these systems read and decipher and they are just that...variables.
.... When ever a power adder is introduced into these vehicles' powerplant, one or more of those aforementioned variables will change. Example: If one was to add a "cold air intake" onto a vehicle in an attempt to free up some HP and help the motor breath better, he may have adverse effects before anything because there are no supporting modifications. See, a cold air style intake is essentially a smooth round (usually aluminum) pipe with an open, conical air filter element on the end intended to replace the equipment coming from the factory which is usually a convoluted, and baffled piece of mold injected rubber. Since a vehicles MAF sensor is located on the vehicles intake tract, and the housing, or context in which the sensor is being used
has changed, it's no surprise that the variables going to the sensor will also change. Many times the increased size of the aluminum intake piping will result in a better capability to efficiently flow air. The smoother, larger diameter of the piping will cause the sensor to read a decreased incoming air velocity, barometric readings, and even the temperature is now different since the filter is typically exposed to atmospheric air more prevelantly than the cars factory airbox which is typically forced to draw in the engine compartments hotter, less dense air supply. Sometimes this change is even greater than the sensors reading capability, or normal operating range. Obviously this is bad. The car will think there's less air, when in fact there is more, thus it will supply the fuel system with less fuel, leading to less power (efficiency), and potentially damaging lean air fuel conditions. It could even retard or advance the cars timing. That's not something you don't want to have control over! This same scenario could apply to many of the cars various sensors with different add-ons, power makers, gas savers, etc. There's simply too many variables! "Well then how do most people who modify thier motors account for these changes?" The answer is complicated, but there is an answer.

First of all, a narrowband O2 sensor is garbage. When hooked up to a narrowband o2 gauge, the gauge will supply you with nothing molre than an expensive light show. Typically (under stock conditions) they tell a car to be in either open loop or closed loop mode at any given time, and that's it. What that means, exactly, is irrelevant right now, but nonetheless, the info is "fuzzy", and not very accurate but good enough for it's purpose...to work with in stock variables. Now, a wideband O2 sensor can be purchased and adapted to any vehicle. AEM makes a great unit with a gauge and everything. This will tell you EXACTLY your Air Fuel ratio, and will let you know what's going on in there. Another useful tool in data acquisition is an EGT (Exhaust Gas Temp. Gauge/probe). This has been used on aviation intended motors for many years, and the data acquired can be deciphered to determine your A/F situation, since different ratios burn at different temps. I would stick to the trusty Wideband. Okay, now that we know what the O2 readings are, what do we do with that info? Simple. You adjust the various parameters of the cars fuel, timing, etc with a tuning devise. On Mitsubishi 4G63 equipped vehicles there are several options. First, you can buy an SAFC made by Apexi. This works much like the EFIE devise, except it is not attached to the o2 sensor, but to the MAF or MAP sensor. What this allows you to do is adjust the amount of fuel delivery based on RPM. Example; Notice that with your new hydrogen supplement system installed that the vehicle is is showing very lean conditions on the wideband at around 6500rpm? Simply scroll to the 6000-7000rpm range and adjust the fuel delivery up or down until a stoich reading can be found. This unit is great since it will not only work on most any vehicle, but it gives you a lot of adjustability. The downsides are cost ($300+/-), and the fact that this unit will not do much for timing adjustments, but it will pay for itself in time on this type of app.. It's intended for vehicles not HEAVILY modified enough to effect those parameters like timing. I'm not sure where in the spectrum of modifications a hydrogen setup would fall, but I assume it would be low enough for this type of "piggyback" unit, utilizing the original equipment ECU. The next step would be a full standalone computer, opposed to a piggyback tuning devise.
Since units like the Apexi SAFC are essentially "tricking" the cars ECU, some of the modern vehicles can eventually detect inconsistencies in the readings and know something is up. It sees the modified signal as an error, and the car will either run poorly or not at all. Using a full standalone system gives the user adjustability over EVERY engine parameter, and doesn't simply mask the original reading of the sensor. This would be used the same way as the Apexi style unit, but has the flexibility to not only log the results of all the cars sensors over a given operating session, but to come back later and say "oh, timing is off at 2500rpm, and the o2 readings are very lean at 6500rpms..lets just adjust accordingly" Super huh? Yeah! AEM make a full standalone for most modern vehicles, but once again cost is always an issue. Not only are these 1000$ or more, but they also require the use of a PDA or laptop for data retrieval and visual adjustments. Mitsubishi cars are lucky as they have an EPROM style ECU that can be socketed and chipped with the tuning parameters on the factory ECU, and enable use of a proprietary system known as DSMLINK. A much cheaper alternative, but with all the same features. Honda also has this type of setup in many cars in which they can use a tuning system known as CROME. Every different make and model has a designated system that is compatible, you'll just have to ask the performance based guys from a forum based on your particular make and model. They'll let you know what you need. For the technically inclined, there is also the cheapest method of full engine management...Megasquirt. Funny name, great product. This unit comes as basically a bare breadboard and requires you to assemble the unit based on your motor. It works with ANY motor from 1-12 cylinders, and had infinite adjustability.... but that's another story.
Basically, to ensure that a Hydrogen setup on any given vehicle is functioning to the best of it's ability you will need a few things.
1: A tuning devise with datalogging capabilities (or just a wideband)
2: Time on a dyno (Dynamometer) to change the variables, such as HHO delivery, timing, ECt.. This should be done by a tuning professional, and anywhere with a dyno has a tuner that can help.

To do anything less would be irresponsible, neglectful, and damaging to your motor. It could even be very dangerous. The question has been floating around here, "What is the ideal ratio for my _____?" There is NO answer! In the performance world that is called bench racing. It's assuming a set of results based on an untold number of variables. When a Mitsubishi owner asks me, "How many HP will I get from bigger injectors, and an exhaust system?" All I can say is, "Lets get it on the dyno and find out!" Every car (even of the same make and model) has differences from the next. The only way to account for these differences is through data acquisition, and knowing what to do with that data, and being able to accurately adjust these parameters accordingly. PERIOD. While you may not want to run a quarter mile in ten seconds, or do wheelies in you hatchback, the fundamentals learned through performance tuning also have many plausible benefits to the fuel conscious.

I hope I helped at least one person know that they have more options than adjusting the cars throttle cable, and doing silly things to trick the car into thinking it's fuctioning the way it was made to. It's obviously not! While you may think it's better (it is!), you cars computer will be throwing it's hand in the air screaming "DANGER, Will Robinson, DANGER!!"

http://www.herronperformance.com
05-29-2008 09:45 AM
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fatalshock Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
I'm very glad you addressed some of these issues, and I'm glad to see there are in fact knowledgeable folks in this economy game. Kudos. Now, many of the examples I was using were based on my somewhat tunnel vision tuning knowledge based on my years of experience on a particular platform. What people need to realize that there is no "One size fits all" in this type of setup, and that while the EFIE is a fantastic option for many vehicles, I'm sure there are many others that will not react to it so well. Just because economy is improving, you can't assume the engine is still functioning in a manner that can be called consistent or reliable. It varies too much. I think that a good, affordable, datalogging tool (at least) is imperative for anyone retrofitting something like this onto a vehicle. This way one can at least know what's going on in there, and maybe even integrate an automatic shut off of the hho system in the event such parameters go out of spec. Kind of like how a Prius can switch to assisted electric, or even solely electric. I mean, lets face it folks, we're adding a basically unregulated amount of flammable gas into your cars motor! Now, I'm not saying that this poses an immediate danger of explosion, that's what's great about an hho generator, but your engine however, is a different tune (no pun intended).
I'm looking at this from an innovative standpoint. Yes this may be expensive for your average Joe to save a few bucks on gas, but someone has got to do this R&D to fine tune and perfect this system so that the costs associated with correctly tuning a vehicle with this kind of setup is painless and cost effective. It can and will be done. Keep in mind, also, that I am not debunking any existing technology. I am simply saying that just because one can catch a fish with a bamboo stick and some twine doesn't mean he wouldn't be better off with a bass boat equipped with a fish finder and the latest rigs. Now he isn't only eating a meal of one fish, but feeding his whole family with strategically planned catch of half a school of fish. Pardon my odd analogy, but this applies to tuning this system. We need to get the most out of this, and the only way to do this is through proven tuning techniques. While performance may not be the end goal, the methods of making an engine function how you'd like will remain the same no matter what.
05-29-2008 10:57 AM
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HerronPerformance Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
fatalshock Wrote:all of that
I agree.
When I first was introduced to this on a TH night (1 week ago) I began researching and realized the HHO community is dealing with a system (stock computer and engine) that seems to not have alot of follow up on the back end other than getting better MPG, and not what it might be doing to say the trans when changing the signal of the MAP signal-that for one bothers me, just like guys putting huge tires on their 4x4s and not actually chaning something to tell the computer they are larger than stock diameter tires, the trans is controlled by MAP, RPM, Speed, TPS and possibly a few others....
Heck, even in the LT1 side, when you changed the TB to a 52 or 58 it was smart to scale the trans tables so it would provide the correct line pressure and not eat up the trans, dang 4L60es.....

I want to start a post in the results area to see how long people have been using the HHO and the EFIEs to see if there are any LONG timers to get a feel of the safety without verifying with at least a WBO2.

http://www.herronperformance.com
05-29-2008 11:12 AM
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fatalshock Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
And just to clarify, I am not assuming that there are readily available tuning methods for every make and model. There's not. Well, megasquirt is viable for any application, but that requires significant background knowledge of these setups. This doesn't mean we throw our hands in the air and say "Oh well, let's just stick to tricking the computer into kind of running right." Just as there is no simple, proven, universal, tuning device, there is also no such thing as a simple, proven, universal, HHO generation supplementation system. While there are "kits", they can by no means be used on ANY application either with consistent results. It's the scientific method, folks! Make it consistent, or else it is just a theory and not a fact!
05-29-2008 11:14 AM
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HerronPerformance Offline
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RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
True!
HP Tuners is my choice for the GM OBDII platform, and they are working on Ford and Dodge but who knows how long it will take.
I need to check with EFILive to see what their options are, not that I want to buy another tuning package ($700+) but might have to.
I am not up on the 'import' side so I have no clue what is out there.

The only reason I can see benefits of these trickers is that they can be turned OFF at anytime, where as if you actually tuned the VCM for the HHO system, once the HHO system was OFF for what ever reason the car would not run well at all....I THINK....I guess it depends on how much tweaking you did in the VCM.....

http://www.herronperformance.com
05-29-2008 11:23 AM
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Pat Offline
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RE: Hoping to clarify tuning options for some.
It seems like you and herronpwerformance have lots more knowledge and equipment than the rest of us joes. Maybe you 2 could come up with some standards for us foot soldiers to use to adjust our hundreds of different engines? I think we mostly all have newer cars with fuel injection and hard to figure out wiring systems and 02,MAF,Map stuff. Maybe you could make us happy and make a lot of money by designing something more off the shelf instead of winging it all? I for one would gladly buy something that works instead of inventing the wheel each time for every car I have or will purchase? After all, isn't that the purpose of education but to provide a short cut to knowledge? You make something that will work and I'll buy it. There are different shocks for different cars, why can't there be different HHO generators with accompanying EFIE,MAF,MAP,02 sensor systems? Lots of money to made here. Pat
05-29-2008 11:30 AM
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