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How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
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gtkco Offline
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How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
Ok, so it didn't burn up the whole engine, thank God! But it did melt all of the plugs! I exaggerated to make sure EVERYONE reads this post. I don't want to see as good of a guy as Cantburn take it on the chin for all of us and have his sacrifice ignored, trivialized or chalked up to incompetence. I am also not doing this to suggest that Mike or ANY of the moderators on this forum are incompetent or devious in any way. In fact, it may not have anything to do with the EFIE. But this sad tale poses a very serious problem in procedures that must be addressed immediately.

If you have watched all of Cantburn's videos on utube he clearly knows his way around car and has approached his install in a very competent manor. Cantburn installed one of Mike's EFIE by the book! He then fine tuned it by the book. Just as Mike suggests, "Watch for symptoms of too lean a mix such as rough engine, lack of power, "check engine light" coming on, etc. When these show up, adjust it back down until the symptoms go away. " Cantburn then ran at least a tankful with this setting to make sure everything was OK.

Search Utube for "Cantburn". see video #11

After doing the whole HHO install, he got a fantastic 80% increase. He then continued to tinker with his generator, but, as best as I can tell, not with his EFIE. But after a month or so his mpg began to drop. The poor guy tore his hair out trying to figure out what went wrong. Way to many variables! Eventually he pulled the plugs and found that they were burned up. This obviously means that he was running too lean or too hot.

Search Utube for "Cantburn". see video #21

What is important here, IN FACT THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS POST, is that nothing tipped Cantburn off that his engine was running too lean or hot until the damage was done! That's why he tried every other possible variable before checking the plugs. If you experts (I don't consider myself to be one and I am not using the term sarcastically) don't get a handle on what caused the Cantburn effect and what procedures should be implemented to avoid the Cantburn effect, quite a few people may unknowingly be doing serious damage to their engines. I kindly ask Newbies to not clutter up this thread and experts to Pleeeeese stay on topic.

The only suggestion I can think of is that tip number 3 in Mike's tip section of his install document (see below) should be moved to an absolute MUST do section in his installation instructions for the EFIE. Leaving it under tips means that it will only be done if someone thinks they are having trouble. That’s way Cantburn never did it. Everything looked ok.

Mike’s Tips “3) If you have a high temperature probe, run down the highway with the fuel efficiency devices turned off, long enough to get the engine up to full operating temperature, and note the temp of your exhaust pipe, near the exhaust manifold. As you increase your voltage offset, this temperature may increase. Don't let it raise more than 180 degrees from your initial test.”

Of course, we don't know if the EFIE setting was the culprit. Maybe he used ethanol blended gas and didn't know. Maybe something else happened. We don't know. I have emailed Cantburn and hope he will be kind enough to post any corrections or additions to my description of his situation that can help us all avoid the "Cantburn effect".
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2008 10:59 AM by gtkco.)
08-12-2008 10:19 AM
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EdGe7 Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
I'm sorry... but I had to do this.

So I guess Cantburn can burn. LOL

Sorry... I couldn't resist.

- E.J.

"The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has its limits."
08-12-2008 10:55 AM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
EdGe7 Wrote:Sorry... I couldn't resist.

Ok Ok. Yep, I kneeew that it was waaaay too big to resistLaugh. But at least we have it out of the way now. Fortunately Cantburn is a great guy with a great sense of humor. Hopefully we will be able to find out exactly what happened so that this doesn't happen again to anyone!
08-12-2008 12:24 PM
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EdGe7 Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
gtkco Wrote:
EdGe7 Wrote:Sorry... I couldn't resist.

Ok Ok. Yep, I kneeew that it was waaaay too big to resistLaugh. But at least we have it out of the way now. Fortunately Cantburn is a great guy with a great sense of humor. Hopefully we will be able to find out exactly what happened so that this doesn't happen again to anyone!

Ok... well to start I think he should seriously consider getting an Air/Fuel Mixture Gauge (I'm pretty sure he will now). I would have really liked to see what his reading was during his earlier setup that ended up toasting his plugs.

There are many variables and to be honest I haven't seen but the two videos you posted. I would like to know if he checked the condition of the spark plugs before any mods and such. A process of elimination will probably be required here.

- E.J.

"The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has its limits."
08-12-2008 12:31 PM
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Cowboy Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
Many variables. Only he can answer though. Like, did he run hotter plugs/coil? You said he didn't probe the exhaust, but did he have a scanner in there to monitor cyl head temp and/or exhaust temp? I've been impressed with Cantburns tactics for a while now so I seriously doubt user error, and there are too many things that could have caused it outside of the EFIE, or even if the EFIE did cause a hot situation, why didn't the computer compensate for it? The ECU reads more than just O2 and MAP for it's adjustments. EGR cycles and EGT are common examples.

And the plugs can always be blamed for it as well. It's not common by any means, but plugs aren't free from defects. I had a stock AC Delco blow apart in my stock 327ci one time. The center came right out while driving down the road grandma style.

Need to get ol' boy up here and provide some intel.
08-12-2008 02:01 PM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
Sorry, I don't buy it. That's like blaming the gun or the manufacturer for someone getting shot.Hmm

The guidelines are spelled out in Tuning for Mileage (which was written by a different Mike, unrelated to this web site). It says there to tweak your IAT to 10 degrees above normal. Same thing with the CTS. Now if I ignore that and do 40 degrees and likewise go extreme with all the other sensors something bad can happen.

I'm not saying that Cantburn did this, in fact I don't recall reading any of his posts in weeks, so really don't know any of the details.

I'm just suggesting that the attitude "if a little is good, a lot is better" can cause things like this so a little common sense is needed.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
08-12-2008 04:02 PM
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stevekos7 Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
To me the first thing that should have raised a red flag was the 80% fuel saving! Over-optimistic glee should not overweigh suspicion when this sort of gain is achieved. I don't know what sort of hydroxy volume he was producing, but to achieve that kind of gain he would either have had to produce huge volumes of hydrogen or be leaning out his fuel drastically.

Unfortunately, when we tinker with the electronics that have been designed to protect the engine (overriding O2 sensors, overriding MAF sensors etc.) then we better know exactly what we are doing. I'ts like discarding a parachute to make the plane lighter.

Sometimes I get the impression that people are just setting the bar way too high in order to be able to boast the highest gains, and running real risks with their engines. Let's not be so overzealous that we talk ourselves into believing that it is possible to do the logically impossible.

After alot of reading and research I am happy to aim for a saving of 30% in fuel with the confidence that this is achievable without doing damage to my car. Any more and I will be looking for signs of damage very early. Fortunately in Cantburn's case his 'weak link' was his plugs and they were the 'canary in the coal mine'. If he had hot plugs installed, he might have had much worse damage that would not have been able to be fixed with a few bucks.

Let's maintain a sober approach to what we are doing and we'll all benefit without alot of pain. Thanks gtko for a much needed injection of reality to this discussion.
(This post was last modified: 08-12-2008 04:27 PM by stevekos7.)
08-12-2008 04:23 PM
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Rjay Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
[/i]Kind of brings me to my last post..... Install a Exhaust Temp Guage. Also a knock sensor gauge would help too.

I don't[i] think a AF guage is good because it is desigend for a GASOLINE mixture not HHO/GASOLINE mixture. I may be wrong here but I won't touch one.

http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=1349
08-12-2008 04:40 PM
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AlexR Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
Why doesn't Cantburn post his story on this directly? I'd love to hear more about it.

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
08-13-2008 04:52 AM
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cantburn Offline
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RE: How a properly installed EFIE burned up an engine!
Hey gang....I thank Greg for posting my story, I've been very busy with the fire department and my wife who suffers from brain damage.....those two things keep me from my hobbies from time to time, but enough of that. Here's the deal with the Tahoe....my plugs had approx. 52,000 miles on them, they were worn but not bad, should have been replaced because the electrodes were a little rounded and not squared off. I run a standard coil and standard ignition volyage. I did not have temp gauge for the EGT....I am in the process of getting a good one installed directly in the bung where the O2 sensor fit in the drivers side exhaust manifold. I used a scope that has a long flexible shaft, light and camera to look inside the cylinder bores and am happy to say there is no scoring of the bore and after vacuuming the cylinders out, there is no debris in the bores and the tops of the pistons are fine. I did find that I am losing seal on my rings but that is gonna have to wait before I consider tearing the engine apart and replacing the long block. I took the HHo unit out and made a jig to hold it out of lexan. My newest two units, COG cells by RAE-Industries are mounted and are ready to be bench tested. I am waiting to really get back into it until I get a PWM, I can't get the results I am realistically looking for without this. I am getting a little tired of burning stuff up or getting the device so hot that I have more steam than gas. I did however run a COG cell alone and the flow meter ran upwards of 1.250 lpm by itself, I have two of them plus the HS2. Once I get a good PWM on the bench and get it on, I'll know better where I stand. I would rather not get into a debate over whether or not I achieved 80% increase in mileage.....the fact is that for two tankfuls that is exactly what I got. I have been commuting this route since 1999 and I always take the same route, same place where I fuel up, same vehicle. I know this truck like the back of hand....and I have nothing to gain by bull$hitting you all. I mean really...
As I have said in my videos, I am not an expert and don't claim to understand what the hell is going on in the engine and electronics. I am handy in the fact that I have tinkerer's mind but I don't have the scientific, electrical or chemical prowess to work certain problems out, that is why I rely on this forum and others to keep me from killing myself. That said, I am slowly learning what works and obviously what doesn't. I have decided at this point to start over from square one with the new cells and the HS2, hook everything in series with a PWM and new engine sensors in place and try it again. The EFIE obviously works and works very well. I think I am going to get something for the MAP sensor as well as a couple more temp sensors and wire them into a box in the cab where I can keep a better eye on things.

Things are going to be slowed down a little because I am very busy at the fire dept. and my business on the side of repairing computers and networks is taking off more than I expected and I am the only bread winner in the family. Just to give you some idea of what I have on my plate.....

Station officer at 6 man station at the fire dept
Mother-in-Law with stage 4 terminal breast cancer living with us until the end.
Wife contracted Encephalitis that destroyed certain parts of her brain
20 year old daughter that moved out but is now having financial difficulties and may be back
120 gallon salt water reef system that needs maintaining
3 dogs, 2 large macaws
2200 square foot house that needs to be maintained as well as the yard and pool
MY Tahoe and a 2002 Pontiac Grand Prix

Lets just say that the night belongs to me and my computer and all of you.....lol

I'll be back on in a bit, have a good one....Chip

"Life is but a tire swing"
08-13-2008 07:15 AM
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