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How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
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Mandilon Offline
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Post: #1
How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Where can I find: BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?

Exactly how does one check 'the output?'

How does one do 'a search' on this type of board?

THX
06-23-2008 09:37 AM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #2
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Check out this document. Lots of data on hydrogen. HHO isn't the same as hydrogen but should provide you with some useful data.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandf...cm01r0.pdf

Output is most easily measured with a flowmeter on the outlet of your generator. Something in the range of .2-2 liters per minute will provide you with a good scale. A "home made" method is to fill a bucket with water, fill a .5 liter water bottle with water, place your generator outlet tube under the water in the bucket and place the .5 liter bottle over the bubble stream. You time how long it takes to displace the water in the .5 liter bottle. If it takes 1 minute, you are making .5 liters per minute, if it took 2 minutes you are making .25 liters per minute, etc.

To search, click the search button on the top right and enter your search data.

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06-23-2008 10:51 AM
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deon Offline
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Post: #3
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Mandilon Wrote:Where can I find: BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?

Exactly how does one check 'the output?'

How does one do 'a search' on this type of board?

THX

BTU is called British Thermal Units. It is the measurement used to determine the amount of energy needed to cool or heat a room. Airconditioners are sized in BTU
07-24-2008 07:20 AM
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Walt Offline
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RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
A watt can be directly converted into a BTU. 1W=3.4BTU VxA=Watts. The definition of a BTU is the amount of heat energy required to raise the tempature of 1 pound of water 1 degree F. 1 watt in 1 hour will raise the temp of one pound of water 3.4 degrees (not considering heat loss). Another perspective on a BTU I have heard used is 1 BTU is about equal to the amount of heat generated by 1 wooden match. Most fuels have a BTU rating per unit for instance propane is around 92,000 per gallon. Other related terms on BTUs are 12,000 BTU= 1 Ton and 100,000= a thermal unit (Therm).

In the world of HHO you can predict the heat of your cell by the wattage input ((Wx3.4)/LBS water)xhours)) excuse poor algebra. To control the heat you can add more heat absorbing water, use a container that looses heat easily, adjust catylist, or add a resistor.

Walt
07-25-2008 06:07 AM
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Walt Offline
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RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Continue...sorry. I think a good production is around 200 Watts per liter. In 1 gallon of water 200 watts is 680 BTU. 1 gallon is 8.23lb. That is an 82 degree gain in one hour (not considering heat loss). Heat loss depends on the container and the ambient temp of the environment. Calculating heat loss is not a difficult chore with just a crude experiment and a themometer.
07-25-2008 06:17 AM
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qsiguy Offline
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RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Walt Wrote:In the world of HHO you can predict the heat of your cell by the wattage input ((Wx3.4)/LBS water)xhours)) excuse poor algebra. To control the heat you can add more heat absorbing water, use a container that looses heat easily, adjust catylist, or add a resistor.

I would edit that last sentence a little. While adding a resistor may reduce the heat in the cell you are just creating an inefficiency with a resistor. The best way to lower cell heat/wattage is to lower the volts per cell which is most easily done by adding more sealed cells in series.

Watts are calculated by volts x amps. If you are running a parallel type generator supplying full 14 volts @ 10 amps to the single cell you are generating 140 watts or about 478 BTU/hr. If you run cells in series and get the VPC (volts per cell) down to 2.5 still running at 10 amps you are only generating 25 watts or about 85 BTU/hr. The difference is significant and production will be pretty much the same.

I'm running 6 cells in series currently which equates to about 2.2 vpc. After 1.5 hours of running the electrolyte temp was ~2*F above ambient which where it was mounted was 118*F. By comparison I had 5 cells running last week which provided about 2.6 vpc and after the same drive the electrolyte would exceed 150-160*F at the same ambient temp. Hardware lasts much longer and the amperage remains much more stable at lower volts per cell. Plus you get a significant more volume of gas at the same amperage in this configuration.

Through my research HHO production is a product of amperage. Watts/BTU's are not the primary factor in the equation. Some heat will assist in gas production but is not the primary factor.

As far as "horsepower per liter", this also greatly depends on your generators efficiency. If you convert the total watts (25x6 in my example above) you get 150 watts total for the generator. This converts to .2 horsepower. Given losses in the charging system I imagine it takes a little more than .2 HP to run the generator at 10 amps but not much.

Walt Wrote:...I think a good production is around 200 Watts per liter. In 1 gallon of water 200 watts is 680 BTU. 1 gallon is 8.23lb. That is an 82 degree gain in one hour (not considering heat loss). Heat loss depends on the container and the ambient temp of the environment. Calculating heat loss is not a difficult chore with just a crude experiment and a themometer.

I think you are right, that is a decent number IF those watts are divided through several cells. All those watts/BTU's in a single cell will generate way too much heat. Divided through 6 cells, for instance, you only need about 33 watts per cell to achieve your 200 watts total. That comes out to about 14 amps running through your generator @ 14 volts total (2.33 vpc). But again, HHO production is not a product of heat, it's the current breaking the hydrogen and oxygen bond.

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(This post was last modified: 07-25-2008 08:52 AM by qsiguy.)
07-25-2008 08:41 AM
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Walt Offline
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Post: #7
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
qusiguy wrote,

I think you are right, that is a decent number IF those watts are divided through several cells. All those watts/BTU's in a single cell will generate way too much heat.

I think multiplpe cells are great, the advantage they have is more surface area for heat loss. However a single cell with similar production and similar water quantity as a multiple cell system will gain the same heat per watt. It is not so much that 2volts at 12 amps is better than 12v volts at 2 amps...all day long that is 24 watts either way. The one huge problem with most of the generators I see today is people get big containers and cram them full of plates. We need to use large containers with modest guts to ever get past this heat issue.
07-25-2008 11:33 AM
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qsiguy Offline
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RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Again, I have to say that, in my educated opinion, it's not the watts that make the gas it's the amps. A generator running 12V @ 2 amps will not have the same production as a generator running 2 volts @ 12 amps even tho they are both generating 24 watts. The reason is the gas production only requires about 2 volts to function, any voltage higher than needed will just get wasted as heat. I agree on the generator designs. Not saying that there is one best way but there are common factors that will ensure you get a decent output and it doesn't melt down like Chernobyl.

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07-25-2008 11:49 AM
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Walt Offline
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Post: #9
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
qsiguy Wrote:Again, I have to say that, in my educated opinion, it's not the watts that make the gas it's the amps. A generator running 12V @ 2 amps will not have the same production as a generator running 2 volts @ 12 amps even tho they are both generating 24 watts. The reason is the gas production only requires about 2 volts to function, any voltage higher than needed will just get wasted as heat. I agree on the generator designs. Not saying that there is one best way but there are common factors that will ensure you get a decent output and it doesn't melt down like Chernobyl.

Gotcha! So your therory is, more efficeint WPLM can be achived with lower voltage.

Here is my question and I ask because I have not played with more than two cells in series. If a single cell has the catylist and the surface area to draw 10 amps at 12 volts, when split down to 6 volts does it draw 20 amps, 40 amps at 3volts and so on?

When I went with two cells my heat problem did not get any better and neither did my apparent production. They seemed to end up with the same net BTU in and I assume the same net wattage.

Thanks in advance.
Walt
(This post was last modified: 07-25-2008 12:33 PM by Walt.)
07-25-2008 12:32 PM
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qsiguy Offline
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RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
With all other parameters the same and you add cells in series you will need to increase the electrolyte concentration to get back up to the same amperage. If you only add cells and don't change something else the amps will drop.

The resistance of the electrolyte is not constant in these generators as it changes with heat but using ohms law you can derive at these figures

10A @ 12 V = 1.2 ohms (electrolyte resistance)
Adding cells will drop amps at these rates assuming resistance stayed the same.
5A @ 6V (x2 cells)
3.33A @ 4V (x3 cells)
2.5A @ 3V (x4 cells)
2A @ 2.4V (x5 cells)
1.67A @ 2V (x6 cells)

To maintain 10 amps through the entire generator using series cells you adjust the electrolyte mixture to get the correct resistance. Factors such as plate size and spacing can alter numbers as well. Some claim using pulsing certain frequencies and other methods will work so you don't need a high concentration of electrolyte, I have no personal experience with this so I'll leave it alone, I remain "optimistically skeptical".

To get 10 amps at:
6V requires .6 ohms (electrolyte resistance) (x2 cells)
4V requires .4 ohms (x3 cells)
3V requires .3 ohms (x4 cells)
2.4V requires .24 ohms (x5 cells)
2V requires .2 ohms (x6 cells)

I believe 1.2 volts is the lowest voltage that will produce electrolysis but to get that low requires very low resistance/very high electrolyte concentrations. 5 or 6 cells in series seems to be the most common setup. My generator is setup to add up to 8 but I'm currently running 6 @ ~10 amps. I will attempt to get all 8 running up to 10 amps in future experiments. My concentration is already quite high. I plan to add more plate area as one of my next steps.

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07-25-2008 01:03 PM
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