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How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
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Walt Offline
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Post: #11
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
qsiguy Wrote:With all other parameters the same and you add cells in series you will need to increase the electrolyte concentration to get back up to the same amperage. If you only add cells and don't change something else the amps will drop.

The resistance of the electrolyte is not constant in these generators as it changes with heat but using ohms law you can derive at these figures

10A @ 12 V = 1.2 ohms (electrolyte resistance)
Adding cells will drop amps at these rates assuming resistance stayed the same.
5A @ 6V (x2 cells)
3.33A @ 4V (x3 cells)
2.5A @ 3V (x4 cells)
2A @ 2.4V (x5 cells)
1.67A @ 2V (x6 cells)

To maintain 10 amps through the entire generator using series cells you adjust the electrolyte mixture to get the correct resistance. Factors such as plate size and spacing can alter numbers as well. Some claim using pulsing certain frequencies and other methods will work so you don't need a high concentration of electrolyte, I have no personal experience with this so I'll leave it alone, I remain "optimistically skeptical".

To get 10 amps at:
6V requires .6 ohms (electrolyte resistance) (x2 cells)
4V requires .4 ohms (x3 cells)
3V requires .3 ohms (x4 cells)
2.4V requires .24 ohms (x5 cells)
2V requires .2 ohms (x6 cells)

I believe 1.2 volts is the lowest voltage that will produce electrolysis but to get that low requires very low resistance/very high electrolyte concentrations. 5 or 6 cells in series seems to be the most common setup. My generator is setup to add up to 8 but I'm currently running 6 @ ~10 amps. I will attempt to get all 8 running up to 10 amps in future experiments. My concentration is already quite high. I plan to add more plate area as one of my next steps.

Thank you, that was a very good explination sorry if it was one you have given before. I see a lot of the same qustions asked and folks getting testy because they seemingly repeat themselves over and over.Smile
07-25-2008 01:24 PM
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CitizenPete Offline
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Post: #12
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Hello, new to group here -- first post. Found this forum via the Fuelsaver-mpg.com store when I was looking for an EFIE for my 97' automobile.

Regarding the questions related to BTU Watts Energy etc... Don Lancaster (who for the record was pretty much anti-hydrogen (HHO), for reasons I will not go into here) wrote a pretty nice primer on Energy Fundamentals In the Oct 2002 issue of the "Blatant Opportunist" issue #71) that I printed out and kept as a reference doc.

You can find the archived newsletter in PDF format here:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf

Fun reading for all -- some physics to keep in the back of my mind while I am playing with HHO and such.

CitizenPete
07-29-2008 04:31 PM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #13
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Walt, This discussion was on my mind the other day and I thought of another example to explain why it's not just the BTU's or watts you use on the water. If gas production was just a product of heat/btu/watts, then we would be producing HHO ever time we heat up or boil water. Obviously this is not the case as all you get by adding heat is water vapor. Good thing or we'd have kitchens blowing up all over the place! We have to send an electrical current through the water.

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07-30-2008 02:04 PM
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Walt Offline
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Post: #14
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
qsiguy Wrote:Walt, This discussion was on my mind the other day and I thought of another example to explain why it's not just the BTU's or watts you use on the water. If gas production was just a product of heat/btu/watts, then we would be producing HHO ever time we heat up or boil water. Obviously this is not the case as all you get by adding heat is water vapor. Good thing or we'd have kitchens blowing up all over the place! We have to send an electrical current through the water.


Sorry I may not have made myself clear. I do not nor have ever thoght such a thing. Reading back on the start of the post I realized I may have misunderstood the BTU question as it was phrased. I do belive (in hind sight) the guy was asking how many BTUs in water as a potential energy if converted to HHO and at what expense in electricity (yes, I know the bond is broken via electolisis). I was talking about the kinnetic energy in the water expressed as heat. Both are important factors in the world of HHO production (heat being the unwelcome byproduct). We can fairly accuratly predict the temperature of the water by the wattage added...that I know. HOWEVER, the big winner is the one that can the most efficently break the hydrogen bond (More H2 and O2 less Watts). You seem to think it is a lower voltage deal...I'm game. As a matter of fact I am adding another cell to my rig to act as an in paralel resistor to my big cell that gets too hot all the time (as per your recomendation thanks).

I am not always the best at getting my point across via chat. I think our brains were in different worlds when we started to chat.
(This post was last modified: 07-30-2008 02:56 PM by Walt.)
07-30-2008 02:53 PM
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George Wiseman Offline
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Post: #15
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
This string has some good data, which could be rounded out with information in my Brown's Gas and HyZor Technology books. It started out with three questions:
1) Where can I find: BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
2) Exactly how does one check 'the output?'
3) How does one do 'a search' on this type of board?

My answers in reverse order:
3) Ask the forum administrator, I have no idea.
2) Is answered pretty well above. I'll add the comment that most people think that if a little Brown's Gas (aka BG or HHO) is good, a lot is better and that is very much NOT so. More on that elsewhere.
1) I'm wondering if you were asking how much energy there is in BG or how much energy it takes to make BG?
As for the former, I usually direct people to the normal hydrogen:oxygen charts:
Hydrogen = 280 BTU/F3 = 10 BTU/liter = 278.9 (Wh/L = 2.89) Btu/lb = 53,776
http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/energy
But in fact, BG contains energy that is not 'normal' and hasn't been quantified yet. For example, pertaining to these forums, it does an amazing job of increasing the combustion efficiency of carbon-fuels. I'll be posting some of those experiments on my website, hopefully this winter.

As for the latter, I measure the energy it takes to make the BG in watt-hours per liter of BG produced at STP. Traditional Faraday electrolyzers (what I call short-cell or single-cell) typically run about 5 watt-hours per liter. Our series-cell technology typically runs about 2 watt-hours per liter (though I claim 3 watt-hours per liter in my literature).

Getting all the efficiency you can out of your on-board electrolyzer is VITAL to optimizing your mileage gains. It typically takes about 7 watts of fuel (gasoline for example) to make 1 watt of BG. This is because ofd all the inefficiencies of the engine, belt drive, alternator and electrolyzer. So the BG needs to improve your combustion efficiency (increase the power output of your fuel) MORE than 7 watts or you will LOSE mileage. If, by reducing the inefficiencies, you can use 5 watts of fuel to get 1 watt of BG, then you can see how much easier it'd be to gain mileage.

My experiments, over 30 years, have developed several ways to optimize the efficiency of on-board electrolyzers, mostly covered in the books mentioned above. Here I'll round out the comments:

qsiguy Wrote:With all other parameters the same and you add cells in series you will need to increase the electrolyte concentration to get back up to the same amperage. If you only add cells and don't change something else the amps will drop.

I agree with the above statement, except that you should already be using the optimum electrolyte concentration, which is about 25% lye, by weight. I change the temperature. More below.

qsiguy Wrote:The resistance of the electrolyte is not constant in these generators as it changes with heat...

That's one of the keys many people are missing. Most people see this effect as a problem, because if uncontrolled it leads to amperage run-away.
I see it as an opportunity. Use a series-cell electrolyzer of at least 7 cells (can use 8 in some designs), then HEAT it to get the electrolyte resistance down and the amperage up. A lot of factors come together to make this method desireable. Some of the factors are:
1) For efficiency you must do everything you can to lower the resistance in the electrolyzer. Resistance = lack of efficency. Heat lowers cell resistance and thus lowers the voltage needed to push amps across the cell. Amperage makes BG.
2) Adding heat energy to the system, instead of electricity, means you are using energy the engine already wasted, (throwing it off as heat instead of mechanical energy).
3) You reduce the amount of electricity you need to get the same quantity of BG production, because you are pushing less amps across more cells and each cell is making BG. Thus you accomplish the reduction from 7 to 5 watts mentioned above.
08-07-2008 09:09 PM
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Walt Offline
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Post: #16
RE: How many BTU's / HP / watts per liter of HHO?
Good reply Eco,

One other thing that has been on my mind is that although a BTU is a quantitive term it realy just describes themal energy. In an IC engine heat is not the goal but rather motive power. The real question is, and I am not sure how to properly phrase it; What is the ignition expansion rate and displacement of HHO? I was reading another board populated by engeneers (on both sides) and one guy (opponent) stated a CU Ft of HHO (pressurized) had the same BTU content of 1 pint of gasolene. BUT he also stated the same quantity had the same explosive value as 21 LBS of TNT. The point he was trying to make was that HHO storage was dangerous but he, by mistake, made the point that there is an enourmous energy content that may not be accuratly expressed in BTUs. We are still cave men! Catch it on fire and see how hot it burns then we can give it a value. For home heating hot is good, for motive power not so much.

Walt
08-08-2008 06:09 AM
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