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Howdy!.......and Problems
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #1
Howdy!.......and Problems
Hi,

I am new to the forum although I did lurk here a few times since I found it last week.

I built a couple Hydrolyzers about two years back (last time fuel was way up) but never did get around to getting them installed. I did fire one up and play with and demo it to friends with a torch popping the gas as it come out through the bubbler. A never ending string of black cats....COOL!

Well, I finally got back on them since gasoline is back up, and I have a little more time, and the first one I got going has a few issues.

I have a real tough time making the electrolyte weak enough to only draw about 15 amps when cold. It heats up the unit pretty fast and then starts drawing more amps (30 or even 35) which is to much. It does produce one heck of a lot of gas though, even when cold, off scale when hot! I did not measure it but it is goin' to town!

This first one (I do not even remember where I saw the plans for it but it had issues when I first built it so I reworked it to where I though it might work, that might be part of the problem!) has 19) 3 inch by 6 inch plates. It has Positive, Nuetral, Negative, Nuetral, for the first four sets and the final three plates are Positive, Nuetral, Negative. (Has a Positive and Negative on each end of the stack.) I built it with as many plates as I could get to fit down inside the housing.

I read that 316 stainless is better than 304 (but way more pricey). I came accross a sheet of 316 and built it out of that. All the plates are .036 thick, and were run diagonally (twice through on each side) a Timesaver machine. Like a giant sander to give one heck of a GREAT cross hatching.

It gets way hot even though the Potassium solution is real weak and also is creating all sorts of anode mud. The bolts connecting the plates are even heat coloring the sheet metal around where they go through to connect the plates to each other. About a one inch diameter circle out from #10 bolts.

The ABS housing I slide the plates into holds about a quart of water and I am using less than 1/4 tespoon Potassium Hydroxide in the distilled water. It starts out drawing about 15 amps but within about 1/2 hour I am pushing the amps up near where I believe the breaker will pop, and the water through the level meter is starting to show red color.

Also it it heats up so much (I checked it and had 160 degrees right after running it) that once turned off it immediately starts to cool and will suck all the water out of the bubbler and back into the hydrolyzer

My second unit is a Smacks I built following his directions although since faceplates cannot be readily sanded on both sides I took a needle scaler, sharpened each rod to a point and went after both sides of these plates with the scaler to help with nucleation points.) It is not operational just yet but I see where this style does not have near the number of negative and positive (powered plates) as my original does.

Would re-assembling the plates on my original to where there are fewer powered ones, or maybe more nuetral ones between fewer powered plates, more similar to the Smack's booster style drop the heat and amperage draw down closer to around 20 amps?

Also would wrapping these paltes in a shrinkwrap as the later Smacks were wrapped help control heat to, or make it worse by slowing down or changing the circulation of electrolite around the plates?

Thanks in advance.
05-17-2011 01:33 PM
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comrevkr Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
Cool You need to try a dry cell. The wet cells can draw a lot of heat. Plates arranged [ -nnnn+nnnn-nnnn+nnnn- ] work real well. about .080 gap between plates. Mine has 21 plates arranged as I shown you pulling 20amps cold putting out close to 1lpm or alittle less. Plates are 4"x4" with 3.5" dia space to work and after 15min at 20amps eletrolizer was at 65 degrees F. Wink Wet cells in my opinion are a bomb waiting to pop when you don't need it to. I am useing a weird mix right now, and I plan to beef it up some more. Cool

Cool
1994 Mazda B3000 3.0L V-6
400k+ miles and still going strongBig Grin
05-17-2011 04:47 PM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
Not going to build a whole new (dry) system till/if I determine they work well enough to be worth the effort! As in this unit NEEDS to give me better mileage!

So I did go back through and re-configure the one I have putting way to much (?) thought/effort into it and the problems I encountered and here is what I now have.

Reworked the plate array to where it is like the Smack's. Not sure what generation I originally got the sketches for but it runs two negative plates in the center with a positive on each outer end and seven nuetrals between them. I wrapped the whole thing in a motorcycle innertube, as well as put a piece of teflon sheet accross the top leaving about 3/8 inch on each end for the gas to escape from between the plates. It now sits within about 1/8th inch of the bottom to try and help control errant electricity through the electrolyte. (I am noticing some foaming of the electrolite up the line towards the bubbler so may have to remove the teflon top piece as I think it would knock down the foam some?)

I was seeing so much heat in the original configuration (wrong I think due to no nuetral plates OR due to the crappy coductivity of stainless) that the pieces that conduct the juice down to the plates or possibly the 10-32 stainless screws I was using to carry the electricity and support the plates got so hot they melted the nuts down into the ABS cap. I ran some figures through a calculator on stainless and the conductivity vs copper, could not make heads or tails out of it (I am a Machinist fer cryin' out loud not an electrical engineer!) so ended up re-working that as well.

I cut a slot in both inner and both outer plates to accept quick disconnect (spade connectors) used 10 gauge wire (tight slip) through the cap to preserve gas, soldered ends on I had gold plated to try and keep them from getting eaten up from the NaOh (but I think the gold plating went South as the heat for the solder went in).

To help keep the spade connectors intact after I pushed them on I painted them with Dolph Varnish (I think is what it used to be called) to hopefully prevent the electrolite from eating them up as fast (although not sure how fast that would be if left unpainted). Used about 4 coats.

I used another check valve drilled and tapped into the cap to allow air in as the unit cools down to prevent sucking the bubbelr dry. I made a little cloth type filter for it to keep debris out too.

It is running in the driveway right now as I am monitering heat buildup but seems real good now.

Pulling 15-16 amps and putting out a quart (946ml) of gas in about 45 seconds.

Time to mount it up and go for a drive!
06-07-2011 09:46 AM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
Test Drive Update:

Well I noticed some pink color in the bubbler line upon return and was pretty amazed as I thought it was anode mud again. Wrong! Seems NaOH will boil Dolph varnish to a nice pretty pink stew in real short order. But I thought it did good with organics....maybe that stuff is not all that organic?

It also was the culprit behind the hydrolizer turning into a foam machine! Did show me a problem I had wondered about a few weeks back though. I used 4 inch ABS for the housing and was wondering if I was loosing gas at the thread root/crest in the screw on top. Yes I guess.....as it was foaming up through there like a washing machine on turbo. Oh well it got me in gear to get some air tight gaskets made and installed so now ALL the gas it produces get shoved into the intake.

What amazed me is that having the varnish bubblin' around in the hydrolizer enhanced the amount of gas it produced?! Always wondered about some of these different mixes of electrolyte used to up gas output. Now I can say I tried one!

Cleaned it all out. Mixed up the same solution minus the varnish and it is running good pulling 14-16 amps and now putting out about a quart of gas in 50 seconds or so.

Still getting hot after an hour or so of use but it is way hot in that engine compartment as the temps here have been in the 90's, so not sure how much is coming from the hydrolizer vs ambient/engine compartment heat.

Want to do a mileage check soon.
06-07-2011 11:34 PM
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koya1893 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
My advice: if you are going to spend time lurking and playing with this process. Why not spend that time wisely and gather enough data to build a dry cell and configure it like so: +NNNNN- or +NNNNNN- if you are taking long drives. Evryone I ran into use KOH, which is good but hard to get and expensive. since NaOH is easily available in my area and cheap by the gl. I use 1lb per gl. of distilled water. a

As far, as the brown and colorized solution: contamination in your system, poor quality SS and you did not cure your plates before build. you can get away not doing that, however run the system for 2-300 miles then flush completely;

Drain the system and use nothing but distilled water run it for 10-15minutes, drain again and fill with your final solution. the water should be clear even after 500-1000 miles.
06-09-2011 06:34 AM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
Like I said I may build another system IF this one proves to me that it will up my mileage enough to be worth the effort.

You use a pound of NaOH per gallon of water!? I am only using about 2 Tablespoons per gallon to draw 14 amps. The stuff I am using is lab grade though (got it from a chemist bud) so maybe that has something to do with it?

The plates are good quality (316 Stainless) and were run through a fancy belt type sander called a Timesaver to achieve great crosshatching on them back when I had access to one. I did run them quite a while at first (that is when they were really producing lots of anode mud) but I was running way to many powered plates and only about half were nuetral (in a 19 plate system) and it was getting real warm which I think was part of the problem too? Since I went to the Smack's arrangement it puts out as much gas, does not get near as warm, and water is now real clear...so far.

I did clean it out real good whan I re-worked it to the Smack's plate arrangment and again after the varnish got cooked off. I am watching to see how fast the spade connectors deteriorate as that will probably be my weak link but have a sheet metal bud who says we can fab some up real quick and easy out of stainless. Do not like the way it slows down the electrical flow and suspect it causes more heat though, but nothing else will stand up to the NaOH.

Since then it has run nice and clear.
06-09-2011 11:55 AM
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koya1893 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
You probably post them, but I did not see them. can you share some photos of the system?
06-10-2011 03:45 AM
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David Gonzales Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Howdy!.......and Problems
My old camera puked out on me a while back and I have not gotten around to getting a new one yet.

If/when I do I will get some loaded up.

One more update....I was suspecting I had some alternator issues about mid winter as I could see the ammeter guage in the cab was showing a discharge while the heater was running on high and at idle. The last couple days after running the hydrolizer for an hour or so (quite a bit of that at idle too) it was evident by the way it cranked pretty slow that the battery was getting drawn down.

Today I put a brand new higher output alternator on and now I may have to go back and ligten up a little on the amount of NaOH I am using as it is bubblin' to beat the band now that it has a good supply of electricity going to it all the time.

Need to run it some more and hopefully it does not start drawing to many amps or creating to much heat....will update when I know more.....
06-10-2011 11:39 AM
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