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Idea of concept.
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #1
Idea of concept.
I was just watching that Bob Royce video and was thinking about that throtle control thing to regulate the HHO output ect.... So then you need extra injectors etc and we get to a very complicated system. Dual fuel... all at once...

So I thought of this. Someone let me know if anyone has a car with this system. On a car that is already converted for LPG (dual fuel), just add a compressor after the HHO generator plugged on the LPG tank (off course it will store the compressed HHO) so the tank will fill up as you drive. Once its full... just flick the switch. And flip back to petrol when its empty. So how bout that.

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2008 11:56 PM by Zipstor.)
12-07-2008 11:52 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Idea of concept.
Zipstor Wrote:I was just watching that Bob Royce video and was thinking about that throtle control thing to regulate the HHO output ect.... So then you need extra injectors etc and we get to a very complicated system. Dual fuel... all at once...

So I thought of this. Someone let me know if anyone has a car with this system. On a car that is already converted for LPG (dual fuel), just add a compressor after the HHO generator plugged on the LPG tank (off course it will store the compressed HHO) so the tank will fill up as you drive. Once its full... just flick the switch. And flip back to petrol when its empty. So how bout that.

Whyfor extra injectors needed?
Using throttle position to control HHO production is not a new idea.
For varying HHO production according to throttle position, throttle position is detected by potentiometer or switch operation, which varies a PWM controller, which varies voltage across your HHO generator, which varies current through your HHO generator, which varies HHO volume production.
HHO is fed directly to engine via intake manifold, or PCV valve line.

HHO on demand. Nothing fancy.

Not a good idea to use large storage tanks for HHO (or even small storage tanks). HHO is way too volatile/explosive. Stick with production on demand. Use as you produce. Much safer.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 03:17 AM by benny.)
12-08-2008 03:13 AM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Idea of concept.
The big bad problem I can see about that concept of throttle position to command the amount of HHO is that it takes at least a second for the reaction to follow the current change. In real time, I don't think it would work. Tell me if I'm wrong, I hope I am.

Storing HHO or H2 is no big deal you know... The fact its "volatile" only make its escape of about 1% every 24 hours (with 2 layers of steel vaccum sandwitch), and its not more dangerous than LPG to have it equiped in an on board tank. There is alot of intox about Hydrogen, I call it the Hindenburg stigma. I think my idea make sense because apparently you cant feed the internal combustion over a certain ratio and I have plans to make a generator that can make much more gas that my engine can take in the injected HHO scenario. My Hydrogen tank would be full (60 liters compressed) in maybe 2 hours. (check out the cold fusion project at JLN Labs)

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 04:03 AM by Zipstor.)
12-08-2008 04:01 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Idea of concept.
Zipstor Wrote:The big bad problem I can see about that concept of throttle position to command the amount of HHO is that it takes at least a second for the reaction to follow the current change. In real time, I don't think it would work. Tell me if I'm wrong, I hope I am.

Storing HHO or H2 is no big deal you know... The fact its "volatile" only make its escape of about 1% every 24 hours (with 2 layers of steel vaccum sandwitch), and its not more dangerous than LPG to have it equiped in an on board tank. There is alot of intox about Hydrogen, I call it the Hindenburg stigma. I think my idea make sense because apparently you cant feed the internal combustion over a certain ratio and I have plans to make a generator that can make much more gas that my engine can take in the injected HHO scenario. My Hydrogen tank would be full (60 liters compressed) in maybe 2 hours. (check out the cold fusion project at JLN Labs)

Hindenburg was before my time. That said, the Hindenburg used Hydrogen gas, not a mix of oxygen and hydrogen gases.
If you ever watch the old films showing the Hindenburg go down, you'll note that it burned rather than exploded. Had the Hindenburg used HHO (a misnomer since it should actually be 2H2O2), already at optimum mix ratio for explosive (implosive?) reaction, I don't believe there would have been time to film anything other than a big red mushroom type cloud. Blast wave would have probably wiped out both cameras and camaramen in any case.
Agree that HHO on demand from throttle is not, and can't be, an instantaneous response system due to the nature of production method. I've already said that in other posts on here, as have others.
To do what you want, you not only need to produce HHO, but also to compress same for storage. Another possible source of heat and gas ignition. Current HHO generators, for vehicle use, tend to operate at low, almost atmospheric, pressures. General idea is to produce HHO cheaply, and efficiently. There is apparently not enough information available, as yet, to show the exact ratio of gas(petrol):HHH required for optimum performance, and whether the ratio of gas:HHO is, or needs to be, constant across a range of engine speeds..
If you do get your design off the ground, I wish you well, but don't be offended if I don't buy one of your designs.

Check out the forum section relating to hydrogen only.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 07:11 AM by benny.)
12-08-2008 07:03 AM
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saltmine Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Idea of concept.
Actually, having worked with LNG, using a LNG carburator isn't a bad idea. Most LNG systems operate on 2-3.5psi working pressure on the carburator side of the gassifier/regulator. This is easily within the capabilities of an HHO system. You wouldn't need a gassifier or regulator...HHO could be piped directly into an LNG carburator. Having a variable demand/supply setup like a throttle controlled PWM might even make it more practical. Bob did mention that his ECM controller has the ability to "ramp up" the cell voltage when demand is called for, so there would be little, if any, throttle lag. LNG carburators are fully adjustable and easily recalibrated to use HHO. (in fact, one of my old IMMCO books gives a chart for setting up a LNG carburator to run on "Digester gas"...Which is mainly hydrogen and carbon monoxide)....

BTW, storing hydrogen....bad idea. First, you'd have to refine the hho to remove all of the oxygen from it, then compress it to about 4000psi. Then, you would have to address the seepage of 1% of it every 24hours.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 07:11 AM by saltmine.)
12-08-2008 07:07 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Idea of concept.
saltmine Wrote:Bob did mention that his ECM controller has the ability to "ramp up" the cell voltage when demand is called for, so there would be little, if any, throttle lag.

If memory serves, Bob's intention was to ramp up to max HHO output when acceleration was requested, then gradually back off HHO production to match to actual speed/throttle setting. Much in the way carburettors do when accelerator is depressed. Quick burst of extra fuel, rich mixture, car accelerates, then mixture gradually returns to normal; after that extra fuel is is burned off, or after next press on accelerator which would repeat the 'bump' of extra fuel..

Bob's method. IMHO, is not a complete solution, but may be enough to do the job in a reasonable fashion.

Still going to be some lag. Takes time for an HHO generator to adjust with current change. Then there's the rest of the system to get through. Piping, bubbler, etc etc. All takes time to achieve balanced state.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 09:20 AM by benny.)
12-08-2008 09:15 AM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Idea of concept.
saltmine Wrote:BTW, storing hydrogen....bad idea. First, you'd have to refine the hho to remove all of the oxygen from it, then compress it to about 4000psi. Then, you would have to address the seepage of 1% of it every 24hours.

It is not. Look around you and count the amount of concept cars, or "to be released soon", or the ones that exists already on the market like the BMW 7. Storing Hydrogen on board is widely possible to my sense, and I'm not affraid of this idea.

Why would I have to refine my gas?

I still think my concept is reliable. And I'm convinced that someone must be working this out as we speak.

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2008 05:29 PM by Zipstor.)
12-08-2008 05:14 PM
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Paulusgnome Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Idea of concept.
Zipstor Wrote:[quote=saltmine]Why would I have to refine my gas?

Because if you compress a mix of hydrogen and oxygen, it will explode! This shouldn't be that much of a surprise - this is how a diesel engine works.
12-08-2008 08:03 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Idea of concept.
benny Wrote:
saltmine Wrote:Bob did mention that his ECM controller has the ability to "ramp up" the cell voltage when demand is called for, so there would be little, if any, throttle lag.

If memory serves, Bob's intention was to ramp up to max HHO output when acceleration was requested, then gradually back off HHO production to match to actual speed/throttle setting. Much in the way carburettors do when accelerator is depressed. Quick burst of extra fuel, rich mixture, car accelerates, then mixture gradually returns to normal; after that extra fuel is is burned off, or after next press on accelerator which would repeat the 'bump' of extra fuel..

Bob's method. IMHO, is not a complete solution, but may be enough to do the job in a reasonable fashion.

As an alternative to ramping up HHO generator voltage for quick(?) burst of HHO for acceleration, as above, with attendant lag in HHO production, would it not be simpler to implement a system where you can temporarily vary the EFFIE voltage offset to tell the ECU you want a burst of fuel. Temporarily set the EFFIE voltage to give a 'lean' mix response, then reset to original EFFIE offset when speed stabilizes. During acceleration you would be mostly dependent on gasoline, but for remainder of time on gasoline:HHO mix. You can still set up for overall throttle control of mix ratio, and also use throttle position feedback to determine when you require to vary EFFIE voltage offset for acceleration.


So you lose a few MPG during acceleration (or do you?).
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2008 02:34 AM by benny.)
12-09-2008 02:30 AM
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gtkco Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Idea of concept.
Well, for us DIY'ers Bob's option isn't too bad. But If we had a million bucks and an engineering team, I think the storage option is ok. Remember, we are only talking about what... a 5-10 sec stomp on the throttle on average? So your pre-chamber or extra storage could be the size of a liter at say 2x or 3x normal pressure. This is so low on pressure storage I am not concerned about spontainious explosions. (My guess is that you could store HHO at much higher rates than this without huge concerns) So that gives you 2 to 3 liters on demand. Remember our currant target is 1 LPM. This could give you 3 extra liters for a whole minute. Then design a computer chip attached to the throttle sensor to release the stored gas as needed. When you are idling you refill the on demand tank. Thats how I'd do it, if I had a million bucks to blow and a crack engineering team.
(This post was last modified: 12-09-2008 07:20 AM by gtkco.)
12-09-2008 07:19 AM
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