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Is it really better
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baracuda Offline
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Post: #1
Is it really better
to have more cells than one ?

Series using 7 cells ( 8 plates, electrodes or whatever you name them ) with 2 volts across each. Your total is 14 volts......right ?
VS.
Single cell using ( two plates or electrodes ) with 14 volts.

From what I've gathered; If you connect several single cells together you have to add more more baking soda, KOH, or whatever you use to bring your amperage back up, which produces more gas.....right?

So if you had 7 cells totaling 14 volts which pulled 10amps you'd be using 140 watts of electrical power. ( volts x amps = watts )
On the other hand
If you had a single cell totaling 14 volts which pulled 10amps you'd again be using 140 watts of electrical power.

The end result electrically is the same..... But I've seen post that say the multiple series cells produce more gas than a single cell drawing the same amperage. So what would the difference be......surface area of the cells ?

If so why not use larger plates in a single cell? That would probably be cheaper and easier to construct, because there are less pieces parts.

But theres something else I'm curious about........Is it really the surface area of the additional cells that allow more gas production?

I wonder......Could it be the additional plate edges? I've read and seen ( in some of my own test ) that it appears the gas is coming from the edges of the plates more than it's coming from the face or flat part. This might explain why the coarse sanding of the plates ( as in Smacks design ) helps increase production. When you sand the plate you're putting grooves or valleys in it. Which in turn creates high spots or edges.....right?

So I got to thinking.....What has lots of grooves and high spots in it. Something I dont have to make or sand or assemble a whole bunch of pieces parts to get lots of surface area and lots a edges?

Has anyone tried using all thread rods?
A 5/16" rod circumfrence is .3125"dia x 3.14 = .981" That's not counting the ridges and valleys so it's surley more. For the sake of simplicity I'd say the circumference is 1"

For every one inch in length you have 1sqin of surface area with lots of edges. If you want 6sqin just cut a piece of 5/16 rod 6" long or use a larger diameter rod.
5/16" rod = 1"cir
3/8" rod = 1.17" cir
7/16" rod = 1.37" cir
1/2" rod = 1.57" cir
Just multiply the length of the rod by it's cir. to get total sqin of surface area.

No, I don't sell all thread rodBig Grin
I'm just attempting to design something with very few parts and really easy to put together. Of course I want it to perform as well as possible.

What produces gas most efficiently ?
Is it the volts or the amps?
Is it the product of the volts and the amps?
Is it the surface area or is it the edges?
Is it the sum of the surface area and edges?

What do think?

You can't skin a fish before you catch it !
(This post was last modified: 07-03-2008 06:30 PM by baracuda.)
07-03-2008 06:28 PM
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azzad Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Is it really better
I dont know if it is the edges as the series cells I have seen pics of show the plates "buried" in the bottom and sides of the cells, so there would be no edge at all.

Dazza
07-03-2008 06:33 PM
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cheapfuel Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Is it really better
baracuda Wrote:to have more cells than one ?

Series using 7 cells ( 8 plates, electrodes or whatever you name them ) with 2 volts across each. Your total is 14 volts......right ?
VS.
Single cell using ( two plates or electrodes ) with 14 volts.

From what I've gathered; If you connect several single cells together you have to add more more baking soda, KOH, or whatever you use to bring your amperage back up, which produces more gas.....right?

So if you had 7 cells totaling 14 volts which pulled 10amps you'd be using 140 watts of electrical power. ( volts x amps = watts )
On the other hand
If you had a single cell totaling 14 volts which pulled 10amps you'd again be using 140 watts of electrical power.

The end result electrically is the same..... But I've seen post that say the multiple series cells produce more gas than a single cell drawing the same amperage. So what would the difference be......surface area of the cells ?

If so why not use larger plates in a single cell? That would probably be cheaper and easier to construct, because there are less pieces parts.

But theres something else I'm curious about........Is it really the surface area of the additional cells that allow more gas production?

I wonder......Could it be the additional plate edges? I've read and seen ( in some of my own test ) that it appears the gas is coming from the edges of the plates more than it's coming from the face or flat part. This might explain why the coarse sanding of the plates ( as in Smacks design ) helps increase production. When you sand the plate you're putting grooves or valleys in it. Which in turn creates high spots or edges.....right?

So I got to thinking.....What has lots of grooves and high spots in it. Something I dont have to make or sand or assemble a whole bunch of pieces parts to get lots of surface area and lots a edges?

Has anyone tried using all thread rods?
A 5/16" rod circumfrence is .3125"dia x 3.14 = .981" That's not counting the ridges and valleys so it's surley more. For the sake of simplicity I'd say the circumference is 1"

For every one inch in length you have 1sqin of surface area with lots of edges. If you want 6sqin just cut a piece of 5/16 rod 6" long or use a larger diameter rod.
5/16" rod = 1"cir
3/8" rod = 1.17" cir
7/16" rod = 1.37" cir
1/2" rod = 1.57" cir
Just multiply the length of the rod by it's cir. to get total sqin of surface area.

No, I don't sell all thread rodBig Grin
I'm just attempting to design something with very few parts and really easy to put together. Of course I want it to perform as well as possible.

What produces gas most efficiently ?
Is it the volts or the amps?
Is it the product of the volts and the amps?
Is it the surface area or is it the edges?
Is it the sum of the surface area and edges?

What do think?

I am sure that this is all not that complicated. I had 8 plates 1/4 inch spacing and produced 400 ml/min drawing 35 amps. I reduced the plated to 4...same results. Connected two separate generators in series and the production was the same, but the amperage dropped to 25 amps. I can see that decreasing the space between the plates can increase production. When I had them 1/2 inch apart I got no production. Also increasing the NaOH concentration (or whatever chemical you are using) will increase the production . But it will also increase the amperage draw. So the lesson I get it this: Place your plates as close together as you can without losing conduction and resistance (maybe about 1/8 inch apart). Connect as many (2 - 7) generators in series (make sure they each have their own electolyte) and increase the Electolyte concentration to tolerable levels to accommodate HHO production and current draw. If this doesn;t do it then you need to scrap that design and try something else. Am I making any sense here?
07-03-2008 07:01 PM
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baracuda Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Is it really better
cheapfuel Wrote:I am sure that this is all not that complicated. I had 8 plates 1/4 inch spacing and produced 400 ml/min drawing 35 amps. I reduced the plated to 4...same results. Connected two separate generators in series and the production was the same, but the amperage dropped to 25 amps. I can see that decreasing the space between the plates can increase production. When I had them 1/2 inch apart I got no production. Also increasing the NaOH concentration (or whatever chemical you are using) will increase the production . But it will also increase the amperage draw. So the lesson I get it this: Place your plates as close together as you can without losing conduction and resistance (maybe about 1/8 inch apart). Connect as many (2 - 7) generators in series (make sure they each have their own electolyte) and increase the Electolyte concentration to tolerable levels to accommodate HHO production and current draw. If this doesn;t do it then you need to scrap that design and try something else. Am I making any sense here?

If I understand correctly. You still use 8 plates comprised of two vessels with four plates each and you have the two vessels wired in series.
So your total surface area and/or edges are the same as your original generator but you've lowered your amperage roughly 30% and still get the same production. That's pretty cool !!!

If you make a more concentrated solution and raise your amperage back up to 35 do you produce more gas?

You can't skin a fish before you catch it !
07-03-2008 08:15 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Is it really better
Over 30 amps might be pretty hot.
In a bath, as I understand it, the edges produce more due to current leakage: the edges are the first place it goes when leaking around the unit. So the sealed series cell forces current to run only through the contained electrolyte, enhancing efficiency and lowering heat...BUT, for some reason, needs more electrolyte concentration. I don't get that part.
07-04-2008 05:05 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Is it really better
baracuda Wrote:to have more cells than one ?

Yes, about 6 times better to have 6 cells instead of 1. Cool

See the several threads on true series cells.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-04-2008 05:23 AM
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baracuda Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Is it really better
Gary Wrote:Over 30 amps might be pretty hot.
In a bath, as I understand it, the edges produce more due to current leakage: the edges are the first place it goes when leaking around the unit. So the sealed series cell forces current to run only through the contained electrolyte, enhancing efficiency and lowering heat...BUT, for some reason, needs more electrolyte concentration. I don't get that part.

Yeah that's sort of what I'm getting at. Once the amperage goes down you have to add electrloyte. But when you add the electrolyte to achieve the same amperage as before. Does the production of gas increase? If not what's the point? Confused

You can't skin a fish before you catch it !
07-04-2008 05:43 AM
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baracuda Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Is it really better
colchiro Wrote:
baracuda Wrote:to have more cells than one ?

Yes, about 6 times better to have 6 cells instead of 1. Cool

See the several threads on true series cells.


I understand:
In a paralell circuit voltage stays the same and for every load amperage is increased.
In a series circuit voltage is divided across loads and amperage remains the same.
So the series circuit produces less heat. But does it produce more gas at the same amperage as the paralell circuit.

OR

More importantly does the multiple series cell produce more gas than a single cell with the same surface area on the electrodes?

If I understand what your saying about 6 times better as far as temp goes. Then it should stand to reason; That if you ran a multiple series cell generator at the same temp as a single cell generator you would net 6 times more gas production !

You can't skin a fish before you catch it !
07-04-2008 06:00 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Is it really better
Let me rephrase, the number I've seen is that it's 6 times more efficient so less wasted heat. I suspect that number would be for 6 series cells so 3 series cells might be 3x more efficient in theory.

Your electrolyte would probably need to be more concentrated to match the lower voltage (2 volts per cell). Some people like more than 2 volts so they don't have to concentrate the electrolyte so much.

I can't give you any hard numbers for gas production since I don't have them.

Rick

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07-04-2008 07:07 AM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Is it really better
The OP question was a good one. But our answers lead to another question:
Why is 2v better than 14v (or anything higher than 2) for HHO production? (assuming plate size compensation)
It's easy to say it's more efficient, but why is it so? I had a dream of the top of a car roof being two plates with electrolyte in between them. I think I'm studying too much...
07-05-2008 05:45 AM
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