Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Just a thought.. hho and pwm
Author Message
cstmwrks Offline
Member
***

Posts: 35
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #1
Just a thought.. hho and pwm
OK this has kinda bugged me for some time. An HHO generator produces gas at a pretty flat rate, based on voltage and conducting agents in the water.
PWM is a motor speed controller that has been used to find the "right" level of energy for some cells to be able to produce at there best. Still, you make gas at a flat rate.
Our ICE do not use either fuel or air at a flat rate through its power range. So would the amount of gas be overly rich at idle and lean at high RPMS?
What if the PWM pot was connected to the throttle valve? Low output at idle and only high gas generation at a more ideal throttle setting.
Is there a reason it is not done this way?

A possible side advantage is more safety built in the system. Even with it powered up no real gas is being made until there is some kind of real power demand.
Just some thoughts.
04-19-2008 06:40 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
colchiro Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,265
Joined: Feb 2008
Reputation: 11
Post: #2
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
The problem is most hho systems are built by the end user and lack the sophistication (and cost) that a commercial unit would have.

Ideally it would be controlled by the same thing that controls the mixture on the engine and would be current-limited. Lacking access to that, I would think the throttle position sensor would be one possibility. Engine vacuum is also good indicator of engine load. It's high at idle and low during load.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
04-19-2008 06:58 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
bandit354 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 107
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #3
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
I was looking at MagDrive website and they are in development of a device that would do what you are talking about. I pretty sure it was MagDrive or Thermo1.
04-19-2008 07:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
colchiro Offline
Moderator
*****

Posts: 3,265
Joined: Feb 2008
Reputation: 11
Post: #4
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
Wow, I need to get a Magdrive. I don't have much room under the hood and with a Magdrive I can install it like they did in this caddie:

[Image: caddy1.jpg]

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
04-19-2008 07:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
cstmwrks Offline
Member
***

Posts: 35
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #5
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
OK.. Well this is food for thought anyhow. I'll be getting a PWM motor controller ordered if I can not find anything local. It will be pretty simple to attach a potentiometer to the butterfly on the throttle body to tune HHO output to the relative fuel demand.
04-20-2008 07:00 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mike Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 2,005
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 7
Post: #6
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
This should be quite effective at further improving mileage, mostly in stop and go driving. On the highway, it should be open all the time anyway, but this should have quite an effect on city mileage. I'm interested in the results.

[Image: signature.gif]
Visit Our Documents Page
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2008 11:52 AM by mike.)
04-20-2008 09:11 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
cstmwrks Offline
Member
***

Posts: 35
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #7
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
mike Wrote:This should be quite effective at further improving mileage, mostly in stop and go driving. On the highway, it should be open all the time anyway, but this should have quite an effect on city mileage. I'm interested in the results.

Mike,
In thinking a bit more about your comment, the EFIE you make and HHO generators in general, tell me if this is correct: Fixed delivery rate from ANY HHO device means that tuning your car becomes a trade off. We shoot more for highway driving speeds to get the best result on long hauls at the expense of stop and go mileage. The Generator makes way more than needed at low ICE RPM so EVEN more oxygen it in the exhaust to levels that overcome the ability of the EFIE to adjust for and the ECM compensates with a richer mix and we defeat any gains. Mid range RPM things may be better or at its best depending on how you tuned things. Oxygen levels are in a range the EFIE can compensate for so the ECM does not make matters worse and the user starts to get the fuel milage gains they want in the first place. At Hi speeds / RPM's we may still be doing pretty well but the fixed amount of HHO generated may now be a bit lean for the amount of air flow / regular gasoline going in. It is still better than none at all but a generator providing HHO at levels more correct for the RPM would produce WAY to much at the low end. Am I close?
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2008 11:52 AM by mike.)
04-20-2008 11:06 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mike Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 2,005
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 7
Post: #8
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
Your thinking is correct.

Let's cut back to a simple installation: HHO and an EFIE. The EFIE doesn't need to be tuned for city or highway because we're not trying to lean the mix, actually. The HHO causes the ECU to "see" a lean condition. We use the EFIE to un-fool the computer. What we really are looking for is plain old 14.7:1 even though the HHO is causing more oxygen in the exhaust. It doesn't matter if we're on the highway or the city. It's still 14.7:1 (or thereabouts) that we want and hopefully are getting.

With some of the newer computers, the EFIE alone is sometimes not enough to achieve this. The ECU sees discrepancies with other sensors. Then we have to move into the next level of complexity and start working with some of these other sensors so the computer will accept the EFIE's mods. For simple installations we want to make as few mods as possible to achieve this. Again, we are just trying to get the computer to return to 14.7:1. So, unless we make radical changes to the sensor's outputs we should still be pretty much the same for city and highway driving.

Now, when we get into the bleeding edge of sensor tuning, we are really in a different ball game. We're no longer trying to compensate for the HHO. We're now into a realm of trying to get further mileage gains from the sensor tuning alone. And in this realm we now are going for leaner fuel than 14.7. In this realm settings for city and highway will be different. You would at this point either set a sensor at a point that is a tradeoff between the two, OR, have a way to switch settings automatically based on driving conditions.

OK, that's what I have to say about sensor tuning. However, you have raised an interesting point regarding adjusting HHO production based on engine needs. This should increase mileage as it will decrease demand on the alternator when the HHO isn't needed. This will translate into less HP consumed and less gas consumed when HHO production is minimized. You will lose part of this gain due to losses in your PWM controller. But as long as you're not out on the bleeding edge of sensor tuning, you're really only after a 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. As your HHO production varies the effect of the EFIE and other sensors will vary in their effect on the AFR. No HHO will mean that your sensor adjustments will now cause a lean condition. The best solution in this case would be to have the adjustments vary with the HHO production. This could be achievable. The EFIE pot could be tapped into and the resistance added to or subtracted from (by adding series or parallel resistances). Most of the other sensor handlings could be treated similarly.

Forgive me for rambling here. I was kind of thinking out loud, and I'm afraid I've told you pretty much what you already said in your post. Hopefully I've been able to add a tidbit or two as well.

[Image: signature.gif]
Visit Our Documents Page
04-20-2008 12:20 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
cstmwrks Offline
Member
***

Posts: 35
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #9
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
mike Wrote:Your thinking is correct.

Let's cut back to a simple installation: HHO and an EFIE. The EFIE doesn't need to be tuned for city or highway because we're not trying to lean the mix, actually. The HHO causes the ECU to "see" a lean condition. We use the EFIE to un-fool the computer. What we really are looking for is plain old 14.7:1 even though the HHO is causing more oxygen in the exhaust. It doesn't matter if we're on the highway or the city. It's still 14.7:1 (or thereabouts) that we want and hopefully are getting.

OK.. that was one of my points though I did not say it in so many words. The EFIE is used to deal with the FALSE gas readings from HHO.
That reading is more FALSE at low RPM due to the fixed rate of HHO production ( higher 02 seen ) and less false at higher RPM. In other words a variable HHO output system would yield maximum MPG.

PWM is my first knee jerk reaction to do this. My second would be a set of 5 or 6 12 volt 2 amp cells that are turned on or off with engine demand.
04-20-2008 02:45 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mike Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 2,005
Joined: Jul 2007
Reputation: 7
Post: #10
RE: Just a thought.. hho and pwm
It's an interesting concept. If you go forward with it, I would appreciate hearing your results.

[Image: signature.gif]
Visit Our Documents Page
04-20-2008 03:08 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)