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Lean or Green?
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #1
Lean or Green?
Mike- here is some info re: the lean burn that I c/p. Just how "environmentally green" conscious are we when we lean out? Are we getting better milage at the expense of more pollution?

1-What it is:
A lean burn engine is designed to operate with a very lean air-fuel ratio during light load conditions. Most modern gasoline engines are controlled to run at a chemically correct (stoichiometric) air fuel ratio (about 14.7:1) to make the three-way catalyst operate at high efficiency, reducing tail-pipe emissions. Lean burn engines mix more air with the fuel when full power is not needed, resulting in better fuel economy. Air/fuel ratio in lean burn engines can be as high as 22:1. When full power is needed, such as during acceleration or hill climbing, a lean burn engine reverts to a stoichiometric (14.7:1) ratio or richer.

How it works:
A very lean mixture of air and gasoline will not ignite as easily as a stoichiometric mixture when a spark is introduced. Several methods can be employed to achieve lean burn, including high temperature, high turbulence and stratification (high concentration of fuel vapor near the spark plug). Lean burn engines are often designed with high intake swirl to increase turbulence. Direct injection is one way to provide stratification. Since more air is taken in, the throttle plate can be opened wider for a given power, and losses associated with pumping are reduced. Lean operation also results in higher combustion efficiency and lower heat losses for better fuel economy. Note: Current three-way catalysts are designed to optimise NOx reduction at close to stoichiometric ratio. Lean burn engines generally cannot meet strict NOx emissions standards using three-way catalyst; additional NOx controls are necessary.

2-Lean mixtures improve the fuel economy but also cause sharp rises in the amount of nitrogen oxides (NOX). If the mixture becomes too lean, the engine may fail to ignite, causing misfire and a large increase in unburned hydrocarbon (HC) emissions. Lean mixtures burn hotter and may cause rough idle, hard starting and stalling, and can even damage the catalytic converter, or burn valves in the engine. The risk of spark knock/engine knocking (detonation) is also increased when the engine is under load
04-24-2008 09:16 AM
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mike Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
Yes, I am familiar with the graphs of Air/Fuel ratio vs the 3 types of exhaust emission production. I'm aware that leaning the mix beyon stoich brings about a sharp increase in NOx.

My main point is that we really aren't going for lean when we use the EFIE. We're just trying get back to stoich. The HHO causes and cleaner and more efficient burn of the petroleum fuel. This causes more oxygen to be in the exhaust. This causes the computer to think that the mix is lean. It then will richen the mix (richer than stoich). With the EFIE we just want to get back to stoich. We're just trying to compensate for the false condition created by our fuel saving device.

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04-24-2008 02:40 PM
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rpatzer Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
Yes, but the stoich is a computer reading only(due to the EFIE), in reality the exhaust is leaner, thus is seems the NOx might be slightly higher.
04-24-2008 03:19 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
You can set the EFIE leaner. But in reality, with a good hydroxy electrolyser, you'll be lucky to get it back to stoich with the EFIE maxed out (just shy of a check engine light).

Look, the proof is in the pudding. If you have a concern, go ahead and run your electrolyser, and your EFIE and set them for your best mileage. Then go in and get it checked. They can measure your emissions, and you'll know. I'll betcha a nickel that your emissions are less than your previous visit.

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04-24-2008 06:56 PM
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jksav7 Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
I read once, although I have no proof to back it up, that someone brought their vehicle in to be tested without a catalytic converter installed. He was running a hydroxy generator, though. He passed emissions with flying colors. Once again, don't know if this it true.


rpatzer Wrote:Yes, but the stoich is a computer reading only(due to the EFIE), in reality the exhaust is leaner, thus is seems the NOx might be slightly higher.
04-24-2008 11:44 PM
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rpatzer Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
Mike- I agree. I think with the vaporizer/EFIE that emmisions will be lower. I think the NOx will only be high when the setting is "too lean", due to heat build-up. I don't know where "too lean" is.
I am saying that the computer reads stoich and the atmosphere reads leaner.
I will get smogged as soon as I have the combo set.
I can only do freeway run several times a month.
04-25-2008 05:54 AM
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mike Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
Cool, man. Let me know the results of the smog test. In theory, you should be down on all pollutants, even with the EFIE on. But I'd like to see the numbers, before and after, particularly the NOx.

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04-25-2008 03:41 PM
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HHOe Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Lean or Green?
mike Wrote:Cool, man. Let me know the results of the smog test. In theory, you should be down on all pollutants, even with the EFIE on. But I'd like to see the numbers, before and after, particularly the NOx.

As soon as I am done testing this tank for mileage gains, I also will be headed to the emissions facility and shelling out 20 bucks to get those numbers. I should be doing this in a couple of weeks. I have 1/2 tank left and traveled 230 miles, so, I'm pretty stoked.

2001 Chevy S-10 2.2 5 speed
22-23 before
27-33 after
07-20-2008 12:45 PM
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nismotekk Offline
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RE: Lean or Green?
Guys dont spend your money! I am a technician at an Acura dealership, we are a certified emissions test facility.I can test my car all freakin day long if I want to. I can dial in loads too, so we can really test emission drops. Mine went back in the car today(finally). I will make a baseline run on emissions, and then turn the booster on and test again. Rpatzer I agree with you, we are leaning the host fuel out, and who is to say that we are not leaning it out too much? That is why I do not believe fuel trim modification should be done until the o2s see the HHO. This is why I have posted previously to see if people were monitoring their fuel trims. Mike I also agree with you, we are leaning the host fuel out, but we are supplementing the host fuel with HHO. But who knows how much HHO is needed to supplement? It is my belief that the gas production on most peoples boosters isnt high enough, so when an efie is used they are just leaning out the gasoline. Therefore NOx should go up, but if mike is right why does NOx down? NOx is formed through heat and time. The longer an A/F charge is ignited for the more NOx it will produce, so if HHO shortens the burn time NOx should go down right? This also explains why timing should be advanced. I have all of the equiptment to test this right now, and I will gladly post my findings when I get them. I have a snap-on modis diagnostic scan tool that kicks ass, I can graph 8 sensors in real time. It also has a jump drive port so data is easily transfirable. I do not have an EFIE yet, though. I want to try different boosters and see how much HHO is needed before my ECU sees it. Maybe there is an equation for this, if you calculate exactly how much you are leaning your fuel, then figure out the energy for that amount of gas that you have taken away, maybe you can calculate how much HHO is needed to correctly supplement. Just a thought. I will keep you guys posted on scan tool and emissions diagnostics.
07-20-2008 02:08 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Lean or Green?
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Rick

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07-20-2008 02:29 PM
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