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Losing faith
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Mika Offline
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Post: #1
Losing faith
Hi there.

I have 12 plate 6*6 dry cell installed in my 2.0 Opel Vectra -89. I have replaced my o2 sensor with a wideband one with afr meter, and don't have any o2 sensor going to ecu now, so my car works now on open loop, cause the ecu is also coded to work without o2 information. I have also an exhaust gas temperature meter.

Hho cell draws 15-20 amps and makes pretty good production. It is also surely getting all the way to the engine. I don't have any kind of efie because I would like to see does hho do something or not.

The problem is when I put it on, I see absolutely no difference neither on afr meter nor egt. Also it seems not to make a difference in fuel consumption. Tell me, if it would make the engine more efficient, shouldn't it lower my egt if I didn't do any changes to ecu program? You also say that the o2 sensor should show leaner afr when hho on. Guess what? It doesn't. I don't feel any increase in power also. No difference in anything.

I'd like to hear couple pretty good reasons why keep on trying, because no-one has got any proofs why hho works, I just have believed what I've read. I would also like to hear how many have tested if better mpg came from fooling the ecu or changing driving habits, not from hho. And why has nobody done some dyno runs and emission tests with hho on or off if it works??
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2009 04:20 AM by Mika.)
07-14-2009 11:22 PM
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bsmart Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Losing faith
All very good questions........i look forward to seeing the replys.
With this age vehicle, try the following:
Disable all of your HHO mods.
Put your O2 sensor back in service so it can adjust fuel flow based on tail pipe exhaust gases.
Create a small leak in your exhaust system upstream of the O2 sensor, so the O2 sensor can detect it. Allows more than normal O2 to be seen by the sensor.
Put approximately 0.6 oz of Acetone per gallon of fuel in you tank, in the gas tank.
See if this makes any difference in the power you 'feel' as you drive.
See what a difference it makes in your mpg's.

The theory per Steve Gage who says he did this on his older Volvo..........on older vehicles with less complicated fuel management systems this method will 'trick' the ECU in to adjusting the fuel flow to 'rich'. This admits significant amounts of acetone along with the fuel to the intake of each cylinder. The acetone 'cools' the incoming air, condensing it, allowing more air mass intake for each stroke of the cylinder.
This allows the engine to run better with less accelerator depression, and smller accelerator changes are needed for changes in speed.
He claims noticeably more hp along with improved economy.
There's a link somewhere in these forums to his information.
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2009 09:27 AM by bsmart.)
07-15-2009 09:10 AM
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mattsauto Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Losing faith
(07-14-2009 11:22 PM)Mika Wrote:  Hi there.

I have 12 plate 6*6 dry cell installed in my 2.0 Opel Vectra -89. I have replaced my o2 sensor with a wideband one with afr meter, and don't have any o2 sensor going to ecu now, so my car works now on open loop, cause the ecu is also coded to work without o2 information. I have also an exhaust gas temperature meter.

Hho cell draws 15-20 amps and makes pretty good production. It is also surely getting all the way to the engine. I don't have any kind of efie because I would like to see does hho do something or not.

The problem is when I put it on, I see absolutely no difference neither on afr meter nor egt. Also it seems not to make a difference in fuel consumption. Tell me, if it would make the engine more efficient, shouldn't it lower my egt if I didn't do any changes to ecu program? You also say that the o2 sensor should show leaner afr when hho on. Guess what? It doesn't. I don't feel any increase in power also. No difference in anything.

I'd like to hear couple pretty good reasons why keep on trying, because no-one has got any proofs why hho works, I just have believed what I've read. I would also like to hear how many have tested if better mpg came from fooling the ecu or changing driving habits, not from hho. And why has nobody done some dyno runs and emission tests with hho on or off if it works??
You don't know what you are doing...Just try some Deuterium oxide (D20)... it's made out of H20, and then tell me it does NOT work...
07-15-2009 05:09 PM
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Mika Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Losing faith
You don't know what you're doing... That's the reply I first wanted to hear. Dry cell with two four neutral cells and koh electrolyte, what I'm doing wrong?

Seems that you know, mattsauto, so tell me why doesn't my egt and afr meter show any difference when hho is on and ecu is not tricked? If it does get better efficiency, egt should be lower with the same amount of fuel.

Maybe you should tell more about this d2o?

E:bsmart, I'm changing my original ecu to megasquirt, so I think I won't change my narrow band sensor back... Interesting idea, though. I might try acetone.
(This post was last modified: 07-16-2009 11:17 AM by Mika.)
07-15-2009 09:50 PM
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martinruf Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Losing faith
(07-14-2009 11:22 PM)Mika Wrote:  don't have any o2 sensor going to ecu now, so my car works now on open loop,

Hello Mika
I have also nothing found with OBD2 to show me measurements. The engine runs quieter audible. But the consumption levels are lower.

Basically the engine is running it this way:
coming from above the left air with HHO and gasoline comes right from the MAP / MAF
in the middle is the engine
The engine uses a mixture of power.
At the bottom of the exhaust channel is the O2 sensor. He notifies the ECU how much oxygen is still there.
Is there still too much air, it was not enough gasoline, and he adds even more fuel.

With the addition of HHO is the O2 sensor too much air report. In order to avoid adding fuel, we must get the correct value of O2 to the "excess" air portion to conceal.

If the O2 sensor is disconnected, then the engine can not react different performance states. = Openloop full fuel injection.
The MAP / MAF can be corrected in order to supply gasoline to curb.

The second point is the HHO.
It is the presence of HHO in the combustion chamber, which brings savings. This means also that a "too much" to HHO is not good for is a saving.

Try a less concentrated electrolyte to be used.
I started with 16 amps and am now at 8 amps with more savings than at the beginning.
If the jam jars in comparison to your 6x6 cell dry place, then you are more likely too much produce HHO, rather than too little.

Greetings from Switzerland
Martin

Ford C-Max 1.8i flexfuel (petrol)
Victor-Tupperware-Cell
4x 5N at 1-2AMP
20% less Liter/100km
07-17-2009 04:26 AM
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Mika Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Losing faith
Yes, martinruf, I do know how the engine and o2 sensors work. I just don't understand why the presence of hho shows no difference in my afr meter or the egt meter. If the afr sensor would see more oxygen by using hho, I should be able to see it also.

Please tell me, honestly, has your savings come from efie or hho? Has anyone compared?
07-22-2009 02:35 AM
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martinruf Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Losing faith
(07-22-2009 02:35 AM)Mika Wrote:  hho shows no difference in my afr meter or the egt meter.
has your savings come from efie or hho? Has anyone compared?

Normaly we need liquid fuel to cool your engines. With HHO the combustion works with lower temperatures. The resulting small water of the burning HHO to H2O also helps to cool down the engine.
This basis allows the more performance of HHO to redirect with the EFIE in into a smaller consumption without damaging the engine.

compared? Yes I know with bad correction there are no savings.
Since I use HHO I can drive from 800rpm and the engine does not stop.

I think you see nothing by your meter, because the ecu allready corrected it back to his wanted values.

Ford C-Max 1.8i flexfuel (petrol)
Victor-Tupperware-Cell
4x 5N at 1-2AMP
20% less Liter/100km
07-22-2009 05:57 PM
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Mika Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Losing faith
My o2 sensor is, again, not connected to ecu, so the ecu shouldn't have absolutely no clue that the hho is added? It should run the injectors exactly the same way, with hho or without. Tell me, how could it possibly know that I play with hho?

Also if the combustion happened in lower temperature, it would be seen in my EGT, exhaust gas temperature meter, because no ecu changes was made. Nothing. No difference in anything. I don't believe in magic, I have to experience some change myself before I can believe it works.

I'm not talking about "bad correction", I'm talking about leaning only that much that the engine can still do its work without problems.

I was planning to bring this to market here in Finland, but I'm slowly losing hope for it as I can't see any difference myself and certainly not going to sell shit. Have I been investigating complete nonsense over one year?
07-23-2009 12:43 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Losing faith
No, you've not wasted your time. You've run into some of the same walls we all do.
To my knowledge, no one has proven that the o2 sensor "sees" HHO at all, or reads it as o2, especially since it will be such a miniscule amount.
If you have your car set up completely stock, you can add the HHO in differing electrolyte concentrations until you find the sweet spot for your engine, weight, and amperage draw that will give you the most savings. More and more of us have found that lower amps will do the trick, but don't expect 100% gains or any crazy crapola like that.
You'll need to add an EFIE if you want more, but for me, 25 percent is fine, and I have no illegal electronics. Most going for the low amp route are using dry cells at 5-10 amps for small engines and slightly more for V-8's.
07-23-2009 01:12 PM
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martinruf Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Losing faith
(07-23-2009 12:43 PM)Mika Wrote:  My o2 sensor is, again, not connected to ecu, so the ecu shouldn't have absolutely no clue that the hho is added?
In the "open loop" there is so much gasoline, that my technicians can smell it.
So there will no working place for HHO. There is gasoline to burn and enough gasoline to cool the engine.

If the mixture is lean, your EGT show hotter values. After you have verified that you can add some HHO and the EGT should be lower.


How many HHO do you produce (liter per minute) with your 2x 6 Plate dry cell?

Ford C-Max 1.8i flexfuel (petrol)
Victor-Tupperware-Cell
4x 5N at 1-2AMP
20% less Liter/100km
07-25-2009 11:25 PM
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