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My H2 Generator Plans
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
nerys Wrote:Ok my knowledge on this is pretty limited. I assume the electrolyte from both sides MUST be allowed to mix? IE I assume if I put 2 seperate seals containers next to each other even if they are a quarter in apart (electrode to electrode) it won't work if they are seperate containers?

how much contact is needed? can I make the container 2 feet across and have the "openings" that let the electrolyte mix more than 12 inches away from the electrodes so that the gasses can not mix?

IE what conditions "must" be met for the unit to work at all?
Exactly as you see it in the plans. The separation here is pretty good. the designer got a consistent 6 mile per gallon increase on a 98 Saturn. follow the instructions to the tee and it works. It is not two seperate containers but one cell with a divider.
10-22-2008 04:07 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #42
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
Think of the electrolyte as your conductor. It must contact both plates, tubes, rods, etc. simultaneously. The farther apart the electrodes, the less current passes and the stronger electrolyte needed. This is why some of us are now using filters; this allows the electrodes to be very close together.
10-22-2008 04:30 PM
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nerys Offline
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Post: #43
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
Thats what I was thinking. What about two seperate containers (think the plans here with NO holes in that divider) but another metal plate build into the devider but touching neither except via the electrolite? I could then seal the plates from each other liquid wise and also have them super close to each other IE a few mm apart. would that work?

Also how do you guys fight the timing retardation? ie when the engine see more carbons its going to throttle back the fuel supply (which is what we want) but its NOT accounting for the extra H2 we are putting into the system so either way the computer thinks its running LEAN and is going to retard the timing. I need at least a 10mpg boost preferably 16-18mpg (so I plan to build 3 or 4 of these generators and run them off some batteries) it would only take 1 battery to handle the 40 amp load to 50% dod for 2 hours more than enough for my 90 minute commute. I will just recharge at work.

I should also see an extra boost since I will not be drawing power from the alternator.

also is there any reason I can not make this unit by the plans but make it much much larger so I do not have to "fill" it as often?

also can anyone tell me the PSI output of one of these? I am going to test this first with an actual cylinder of hydrogen. I need to calibrate the output of the cylinder to simulate one of these units and then 3 or 4 of these units to see how the car functions with it.

The gauges I can get measure in PSI not lpm. :-)

Thanks!
10-22-2008 05:55 PM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
nerys Wrote:Thats what I was thinking. What about two seperate containers (think the plans here with NO holes in that divider) but another metal plate build into the devider but touching neither except via the electrolite? I could then seal the plates from each other liquid wise and also have them super close to each other IE a few mm apart. would that work?

Also how do you guys fight the timing retardation? ie when the engine see more carbons its going to throttle back the fuel supply (which is what we want) but its NOT accounting for the extra H2 we are putting into the system so either way the computer thinks its running LEAN and is going to retard the timing. I need at least a 10mpg boost preferably 16-18mpg (so I plan to build 3 or 4 of these generators and run them off some batteries) it would only take 1 battery to handle the 40 amp load to 50% dod for 2 hours more than enough for my 90 minute commute. I will just recharge at work.

I should also see an extra boost since I will not be drawing power from the alternator.

also is there any reason I can not make this unit by the plans but make it much much larger so I do not have to "fill" it as often?

also can anyone tell me the PSI output of one of these? I am going to test this first with an actual cylinder of hydrogen. I need to calibrate the output of the cylinder to simulate one of these units and then 3 or 4 of these units to see how the car functions with it.

The gauges I can get measure in PSI not lpm. :-)

Thanks!

If you downloaded the pdf at the beginning of this thread there are holes in the divider. When straight H2 is run in an engine you get a more complete burn, less oxygen in the exhaust. The engine sees this as a rich condition, so it reduces the fuel intake. That is the difference here than with hho. No extra oxygen. The engine cannot see the hydrogen just the complete burn. So the computer is working in our favor not against us. these units do not put out any psi. The are a free flowing system the building up and storage of h2 is dangerous, that is why it is an on demand system. Only is producing while the car is running. It does not take a lot of h2 to see gains. On the 98 Saturn he was only putting out 3 liters an hour. This is not a lot of gas. What size engine do you have? Also this unit should run no more than ten amps. you can make the unit bigger if need be to hold more electrolyte. That may help keep the unit cooler.
10-22-2008 07:23 PM
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nerys Offline
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Post: #45
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
I know 10 amps but if I run FOUR of them thats 4x10 amps.

I got the plans looks very easy to build except that the acrylic is rather expensive but I can work around that for now.

No pressure means no gas. IE there must be "some" pressure or how else are you pushing the gas into the engine. it may not be much pressure but there is pressure or you would not be able to "fill" and upended bottle to measure your liters per hour etc..

3 liters per hour so a 2 liter bottle should fill in 40 minutes. wow thats really slow I might have to install a second regulator to get a flow rate that small.

or I could just move upto the 4 unit setup and simulate 1 liter in 10 minutes. I am wondering if thats even lower than 2 psi.

what I was saying about the fuel is that on the COMPUTER side your right it won't dump extra fuel because no excess oxygen BUT IT WILL retard the timing as it "reduces" the fual load. Retard the timing too much and you can make it run like crap and or hurt the engine.

OR am I mistaken? IE how does the computer determine the timing? if it bases it partly on fuel rate ie lean or rich then H2 is going to cause the computer to retard the timing. If it bases it ONLY on O2 sensor data then we might be ok since it will still in theory have the correct O2 readings and not retard the timing (I just don't know enough about these engine computers)

Is timing something that an OBDII meter will display? if we can display this data live we can "see" how the timing changes (or hopefully does not change) when we do this.

Can retarding the timing too much HURT the engine? ie will it JUST make it run like crap (not a big deal just stop when it gets to that point) or will it also HARM the engine?

I want to run a lot more than a little H2 I want to get 40-45 mpg out of my minivan and 30 out of my Club Wagon.

The minivan has a 3 liter V6 while the Clubwagon has a 5 liter V8 The Jeep has a 4 Liter Straight 6.

I plan to make this a "unit" so I can move it from car to car so I only have to build and maintain one unit.

I am uploading a crude drawing of what I mean. in my concept NO electrolyte can mix between the sides but they can "conduct" via the plat embedded in the divider.

Will that work?


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(This post was last modified: 10-22-2008 09:00 PM by nerys.)
10-22-2008 08:55 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #46
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
No. you cannot have neutrals in a separator. Read the Smack booster plans pdf. and study on how HHO works before you try to understand H2. You're missing all the basic knowledge and trying to look at the complicated stuff first.
I don't know why you're worrying about retarded timing: a good thing with fast burning hydrogen. And no, the o2 sensor isn't what determines it in the ECU.
10-23-2008 02:44 AM
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jjb2888 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
nerys Wrote:I know 10 amps but if I run FOUR of them thats 4x10 amps.

I got the plans looks very easy to build except that the acrylic is rather expensive but I can work around that for now.

No pressure means no gas. IE there must be "some" pressure or how else are you pushing the gas into the engine. it may not be much pressure but there is pressure or you would not be able to "fill" and upended bottle to measure your liters per hour etc..

3 liters per hour so a 2 liter bottle should fill in 40 minutes. wow thats really slow I might have to install a second regulator to get a flow rate that small.

or I could just move upto the 4 unit setup and simulate 1 liter in 10 minutes. I am wondering if thats even lower than 2 psi.

what I was saying about the fuel is that on the COMPUTER side your right it won't dump extra fuel because no excess oxygen BUT IT WILL retard the timing as it "reduces" the fual load. Retard the timing too much and you can make it run like crap and or hurt the engine.

OR am I mistaken? IE how does the computer determine the timing? if it bases it partly on fuel rate ie lean or rich then H2 is going to cause the computer to retard the timing. If it bases it ONLY on O2 sensor data then we might be ok since it will still in theory have the correct O2 readings and not retard the timing (I just don't know enough about these engine computers)

Is timing something that an OBDII meter will display? if we can display this data live we can "see" how the timing changes (or hopefully does not change) when we do this.

Can retarding the timing too much HURT the engine? ie will it JUST make it run like crap (not a big deal just stop when it gets to that point) or will it also HARM the engine?

I want to run a lot more than a little H2 I want to get 40-45 mpg out of my minivan and 30 out of my Club Wagon.

The minivan has a 3 liter V6 while the Clubwagon has a 5 liter V8 The Jeep has a 4 Liter Straight 6.

I plan to make this a "unit" so I can move it from car to car so I only have to build and maintain one unit.

I am uploading a crude drawing of what I mean. in my concept NO electrolyte can mix between the sides but they can "conduct" via the plat embedded in the divider.

Will that work?

Most modern engines have no timing adjustment. All your engines from what I assume are newer models timing is controlled by crank and cam position sensors, and map sensor. The distributors are fixed. I know that is for sure on the Jeep. The map sensor takes a reading on manifold pressure "seeing" the engine load, then the ecu compares that to the cam position and crank position, then based on programming in the ecu advances or retards the timing.

A neutral plate cannot be used unless it piped to discharge gases. A neutral or the scientific term Bipolar plate is exactly that. There is no mechanical electrical connection. It conducts current through the electrolyte. One side of the plate will carry a positive charge and the other a negative.

The electrolyte must mix some how on both sides in order for the current to flow. thats why the divider has holes in it. Many of us are looking at other materials that will do the job and allow for separation.

you may need possible 4 cells because of the V8. Not sure maybe more.

Gary is right H2 is a lot more complex than HHO. Many of the same principles apply, but there are also different challenges and methods for building and running cells. Research HHO and learn there and then you will get a better grasp on H2 only.
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2008 06:42 AM by jjb2888.)
10-23-2008 06:35 AM
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hydrotinkerer Offline
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Post: #48
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
Well I broke the center divider for my h2 only gen. I was using spun fiberglass for a separator. Any suggestions on separator material since I have to rebuild my housing. I had a three cell series w/fiberglass.
10-23-2008 10:04 AM
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nerys Offline
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Post: #49
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
Hmmm I got another idea. Multiple dividers with non aligned holes. at least this way if you get mixture although you will lose some hydrogen it won't "mix" the two together and feed that to the engine (you could vent this "mix" area with the O2)

I do not see how a H2 generator is any more complicated than an HHO generator. an H2 generator is identical to an HHO generator except your placing a divider inbetween the electrodes to seperate the Hydrogen and Oxygen.

In fact the PDF I got from this thread for an H2 generator looks MUCH simpler than an HHO generator.

What am I missing? is there more to an H2 generator than what is in the PDF I got from here? seem to me I vent the O2 to atmosphere and I vent the Hydrogen to the air intake box? It seems the only vaguely complicated aspect to all this is i how to efficiently keep the gases separate.?

I have already built simple HHO generators. its not hard 2 plates positive and negative in water.

yes jjb none of my engines has adjustable timing except maybe the Thing. Its all controlled by the computers. If what your saying it correct then I might have nothing to fear from timing issues.

I wonder if you insert enough H2 into the engine will the computer "turn off" the injectors all together? say going down a hill no load. I wonder how much H2 I would need to get it to do that :-) would save a ton of gas if I ran pure H2 even if only at idle. but I am not gunning for that I think thats a pipe dream for now :-)

If I can just get past 40mpg I will be ultra happy.
10-23-2008 02:59 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #50
RE: My H2 Generator Plans
"I do not see how a H2 generator is any more complicated than an HHO generator. an H2 generator is identical to an HHO generator except your placing a divider inbetween the electrodes to seperate the Hydrogen and Oxygen."
Heheh. Yeah. Let us know how you get on. I've been with this from the start, since Barry first came up with the Hydranox knockoff - and yes, it's simple. And inefficient. He gets results from it on the Saturn and is happy, and another I know had results with it, one that Doug made. Get away from that design and see how "easy" you think it is. All I'm saying is it's easy to sit and say how easy you see it to be, but you don't know the failures and problems we've had developing working units since we started. It weren't easy, and my best unit has about a hundred parts in it. Working now to get that down after testing.
Hydro: why don't you guineapig it for us and try either the nylon stocking or curtain material?
(This post was last modified: 10-23-2008 03:24 PM by Gary.)
10-23-2008 03:21 PM
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