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NO gains in mileage yet!
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254KCamry Offline
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Post: #1
NO gains in mileage yet!
Hi all, new to the forum and have been reading a bit here and there.

My test car is a 1996 Toyota Camry 2.2L 5-Spd with 254409 miles as of today, this car is in perfect shape and gets 32 MPG unassisted highway/ and 27 MPG city.

I have installed an 8-plate modification of a Smack's Booster with SS 316 .040" plates measuring 3.5" by 4.5" inside of a Wal-Mart's $8.00 sealing acrylic canister. My electrolyte is KOH and I have tried everything from Tungsten sheet to Hastelloy jet engine alloy plates, but stainless steel (316) seems to work best and not break the bank doing it. I have some Zirconium sheet coming and I will update with the results of that...trying to get this thing as maintenance-free as possible.

My first unit drew so many amps that the solution boiled inside of the canister and the engine pulled in nearly a quart of water - then it tipped over and it then sucked in some KOH (yummy!). But these motors are hard to kill, and it still keeps going. If I melt a valve or blow out a piston, a replacement engine is 15 miles, $100, and one weekend away (big deal!)

I have also replaced the O2 sensor with a new unit - and reversed the downstream sensor with the upstream sensor (I did this because I could not put an extender on the upstream sensor).

Furthermore, I have added a MAP sensor enhancer which at first seemed to work pretty well. I have driven the car about 3000 miles since everything has been connected and tried countless settings of the MAP enhancer, with the best results coming in at 31.5 MPG combined city/highway.

I drive the car normally, occasionally standing on the gas; sometimes just drive easy - and try to keep things as realistic as possible. I can't really drive 45 everywhere in a large city without getting ran over! I have had this car long enough to know that cruising at 65 or 85 MPH MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN THE FUEL ECONOMY!!!! So if I need to change driving habits - please let me know!! This car is very consistent, and I am using the same BP 93 Octane gas from the same station to keep as many parameters constant as possible.

BUT NO GAINS (MAYBE 10% at BEST) YET! Please HELP!!

1996 Toyota Camry 2.2L 5-spd 254K miles
O2 extender with new OEM downstream sensor
Downstream/upstream wiring input to computer reversed
8-plate modified Smacks Booster with KOH electrolyte
Noticeable power increase but little if any additional MPG
10-27-2008 07:00 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
The o2 sensor has the final say when it comes to leaning out your mix, much more say than the MAF or MAP sensor. You'd need one for each pre-cat o2, so a double for a V6 or a single for a 4 cyl or inline 6.

Another possibility is maybe you aren't producing enough hho or maybe you have your MAP mod turned too high.

I'd do an output test of your cell, and install an ammeter (if you haven't already) and also do a leak test of the connections with soapy water. If you have decent output at a reasonable current (well under 20 amps), then the efie is the next step.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
10-27-2008 07:30 PM
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254KCamry Offline
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Post: #3
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
THanks for the reply! Let me run this idea by you ---I have switched the pre-cat 02 sensor with the post-cat sensor, all I did was switching the wiring that goes into the receptacle with the other sensor, like for like. Any thoughts on this idea? The reason behind this was to be able to install an extender into the post-cat sensor (which the computer thinks is now the pre-cat sensor) I did not get a Check Engine light when I did this modification.

Any help appreciated on this one....

1996 Toyota Camry 2.2L 5-spd 254K miles
O2 extender with new OEM downstream sensor
Downstream/upstream wiring input to computer reversed
8-plate modified Smacks Booster with KOH electrolyte
Noticeable power increase but little if any additional MPG
10-28-2008 04:24 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #4
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
I see nothing to be gained by that and it's probably just asking for trouble since the signal before and after the cat will not be identical. They may be different part #'s too.

Most people report no improvement with the extenders and some even report a loss in mileage. I had no gain and maybe a slight loss in mileage when I had one installed. I had to remove one of my cooling fans to install one and had to buy a o2 socket to remove mine so over $20 in expenses. Probably best to invest that in something known to work.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
10-28-2008 05:03 PM
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Zolar1 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
I can see a few problems.

First, by switching the connectors, the computer's fuel mapping will be off kilter.
Get rid of the extender, put the wiring back, and install an EFIE. Your car's computer is compensating for the Hydroxy gas by enriching the fuel mixture.

Next, unless your vehicle is designed to run premium, switch back to the cheapest gas that doesn't cause a ping. The Hydroxy speeds up flame spread, but the premium slows down the flame spread, hence the reason it has high anti-knock properties.

You need at least 1 to 2.5 lpm to see much of a difference.

Other items to note:

Make sure all tires are the exact same brand and thread design, and have them inflated to 40 PSI (if it says 44 psi on the sidewall) or 32 psi (if it says 35 psi on the sidewall).

How's your alignment? Brakes? Exhaust leaks?
Just ONE exhaust leak that you can smell or hear kills your gas mileage on small engines. They need the back pressure for proper operation.

Invest in a K & N air intake system, or at least their air filter. You mentioned that you drive 65 or 85 on the highway. The engine can breathe better.

Replace your PCV valve, if you have one.

Invest in Pulsar plugs, if you're rich enough. Stay away from Bosch spark plugs - they don't work well with most vehicles and have been known to burn holes in your pistons.

Make sure you don't have any vacuum leaks, even intentional one's. Both alter MAP/O2 readings.

Do you have a MAF sensor? IAT sensor? 1000W stereo amp?

Don't feel bad. I can't get any appreciable gains on my wife's car either. But, I can get loads of power if I remove all the enhancer items. (wife's foot is too heavy as it is - lol)

My dad did get about a 20% increase in MPG in his 2002 S-10. Went from 18mpg to 21 mpg on the highway, until he melted his unit.

Be sure to have someone reset your car's computer so it can relearn your setup (last resort).

Some vehicles refuse to give you better MPG, no matter what you do.
10-29-2008 04:29 AM
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Zolar1 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
PS run some B-12 Chemtool in your gas tank. But only for one tank.
10-29-2008 04:31 AM
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254KCamry Offline
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Post: #7
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
ZOLAR,

THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHTS! JUST A FEW NOTES ABOUT THE CAR....

THE TIRES STAY INFLATED TO 38 PSI AND THEIR MAX IS 44 PSI. I KEEP UP WITH THEM ACCORDING TO TEMPERATURE CHANGES AND DAILY DRIVING OF ABOUT 75 MILES ROUNDTRIP.

THE CAR HAS A K & N WHICH HELPED OUT WITH POWER AND MILEAGE; GIVING AN ADDITIONAL 1-2 MPG. IT HAS AN IAT SENSOR THAT MOUNTS IN THE SIDE OF THE ALUMINUM AIR INTAKE TUBE - I'M GUESSING THIS MAKES FOR A COLDER AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE PLUS MORE AIR, MAYBE LEANING OUT THE MIXTURE?

I WILL SWITCH THE 02 SENSORS BACK TO STOCK SINCE I JUST FILLED UP TODAY (28.0 MPG COMBINED).

THE ALIGNMENT IS PERFECT, THE CAR TRACKS STRAIGHT AND NARROW DESPITE THE MILEAGE, AND THE BRAKES WERE REWORKED FRONT AND BACK LAST YEAR. NO DRAGGING, EXHAUST LEAKS, OR FUNNY TIRES. I HAVE ELIMINATED AS MANY VARIABLES AS POSSIBLE BEFORE INSTALLING THE HHO SYSTEM, I AM A SCIENTIST BY NATURE AND AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH KEEPING VARIABLES TO A MINIMUM FOR TESTING PURPOSES.

I GUESS THE NEXT STEP IS AN EFIE - I WILL HAVE TO READ UP ON ONE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR IDEAS! I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED ON THE SWITCHING OF THE SENSORS.

1996 Toyota Camry 2.2L 5-spd 254K miles
O2 extender with new OEM downstream sensor
Downstream/upstream wiring input to computer reversed
8-plate modified Smacks Booster with KOH electrolyte
Noticeable power increase but little if any additional MPG
10-30-2008 04:19 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #8
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
There's some reading material on the efie in my Documents link.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
10-30-2008 04:41 PM
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hydrotinkerer Offline
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Post: #9
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
My camry dropped 7mpg when hho gen. was on and no mods. I installed an Efie and got my 7mpg back plus 2 so far. It has been a rollercoaster with mpg's. Every little change affects my mpg's. I installed my dry cell and I'm in the process of getting up to 12-15amps.
10-30-2008 04:50 PM
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Zolar1 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: NO gains in mileage yet!
254KCamry Wrote:ZOLAR,

THANKS FOR YOUR INSIGHTS! JUST A FEW NOTES ABOUT THE CAR....

THE TIRES STAY INFLATED TO 38 PSI AND THEIR MAX IS 44 PSI. I KEEP UP WITH THEM ACCORDING TO TEMPERATURE CHANGES AND DAILY DRIVING OF ABOUT 75 MILES ROUNDTRIP.

THE CAR HAS A K & N WHICH HELPED OUT WITH POWER AND MILEAGE; GIVING AN ADDITIONAL 1-2 MPG. IT HAS AN IAT SENSOR THAT MOUNTS IN THE SIDE OF THE ALUMINUM AIR INTAKE TUBE - I'M GUESSING THIS MAKES FOR A COLDER AIR INTAKE TEMPERATURE PLUS MORE AIR, MAYBE LEANING OUT THE MIXTURE?

I WILL SWITCH THE 02 SENSORS BACK TO STOCK SINCE I JUST FILLED UP TODAY (28.0 MPG COMBINED).

THE ALIGNMENT IS PERFECT, THE CAR TRACKS STRAIGHT AND NARROW DESPITE THE MILEAGE, AND THE BRAKES WERE REWORKED FRONT AND BACK LAST YEAR. NO DRAGGING, EXHAUST LEAKS, OR FUNNY TIRES. I HAVE ELIMINATED AS MANY VARIABLES AS POSSIBLE BEFORE INSTALLING THE HHO SYSTEM, I AM A SCIENTIST BY NATURE AND AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH KEEPING VARIABLES TO A MINIMUM FOR TESTING PURPOSES.

I GUESS THE NEXT STEP IS AN EFIE - I WILL HAVE TO READ UP ON ONE.

THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR IDEAS! I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED ON THE SWITCHING OF THE SENSORS.


You're very welcome!

Your IAT sensor tells the computer the incoming air temperature. The colder (and denser) the incoming air, the higher the timing and more fuel will be added.

I took mine out of it's mounting hole, and let it dangle behind the radiator. It seems to help a tiny bit, but my wife's erratic driving habits make it difficult to obtain accurate results.

Try soldering a 10K Ohm resistor between the MAP sensor output and the ECU input. If no CEL, try a 22K. If no CEL, then a 33K. That can help a little too. Or you can just solder in a 50K Pot. and adjust it at your leisure.

An EFIE isn't difficult to use. Just install the appropriate one, and SLOWLY adjust it, waiting 10 minutes between adjustments. Start at .2v and adjust in .05 increments until satisfied or you get a CEL.
10-30-2008 05:29 PM
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