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Negative vacuum water vapor injection
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cjpeaceful Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
First off I should say the amount of water vapor which is being consumed by the engine is very minimal at best. I am no where near the amount of water being ingested as say a "typical" water/methanol injection system would be seeing. So, the block pressures I'm seeing is probably minimum is any more than what a stock 3.8L would see under normal load conditions. But, this may change...

I'm still working out the details but I want to try huge amounts of water vapor injection by the same method - vacuum. But, I have some designing issues to work out first...

rzone, yes, I can see where this just does not make sense at first thought but the vapor is being created and is being ingested into the intake manifold via the PCV system.

One thing you need to remember is what the PVC actually does on a typical ICE.

All the air collected by the air cleaner (and metered by the mass air flow sensor, on a fuel injected engine) goes through the intake manifold. The PCV system just diverts a small percentage of this air via the breather to the crankcase before allowing it to be drawn back in to the intake tract again. It is an "open system" in that fresh exterior air is continuously used to flush contaminants from the crankcase and into the combustion chamber.
11-11-2008 02:15 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
Rzone asked the same question I had in a barrage of questions I asked Fozzie over this device. The resultant answers were to compare the vacuum evacuation of an Air Conditioning system where they use a lot of vacuum to dry it out. What is happening in reality is it's not a WI system. It's humidity. Which also led me to think that it can't possibly work at a ratio of 1:1,000,000,000 or whatever. BUT...that led to the discussion of steam expansion rates of around 1000 times, which would put our "vapor" at something like, I forget, 1:14 - steam to AF mix, so it seemed plausible that some effect could be produced.
At this point I've seen about five posts of guys trying it (including this one) and only one who got mileage from it, aside of the OP, Fozzie. So...it COULD work...on SOME cars...maybe.
The torque alone would be worth having it IMO. The possibility of it blowing an engine is moot: this in not injection, it's vapors of humidity wafting down the tube WHEN you increase the vacuum. BUT...think on this now...that happens when you let OFF the throttle and close the throttle plate, unless you're plumbed into a carburetter base port. (there are some that act differently)
Now we're back to rzone and my questions: after full vacuum is reached, how in heck can vapors move any more? Fozzie swears they do, and the HVAC guys concur, since they can remove MOST of the water from a system at one point with vacuum.

Hooking to the PCV valve seems to me to be the wrong place; it loses vacuum at throttle. There is some sort of compensator that keeps vacuum on the brake system: I feel that this may be the key to making this device work better. Perhaps a couple of brake parts to add?
I'm not naysaying this: still trying to understand after much discussion. No one has answered understandably yet. Matter of fact, I was told we don't have to understand it for it to work or to run it on our cars.
Wrong sucka: I have to know what I'm doing. It's my first gear.
11-11-2008 03:09 PM
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cjpeaceful Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
I agree Gary with your thoughts on what happens when you are driving down the highway at 1800 rpm. The amount of vacuum being created is very small compared the amount you would see in stop and go traffic. This is why I made the statement earlier where this could possibly work better for city driving than mostly highway.

After my next fill up, which should be Friday, I plan on plumbing the output hose to another source - for the vary reasons stated so far.

There's a vacuum hose, on the other valve cover, which is apart of the PCV system but unlike the other connection, it taps into the intake air stream as well. When I remove the hose from the intake hose, right before the throttle body, I can feel a small amount of vacuum (suction) at idle but the suction increases whenever I rev the engine. Ideally, I would like to run the vapor line to my intake air stream hose. But, without some sort of electrical assistance in injection the water into the air stream, I'm currently stuck.
11-12-2008 09:41 AM
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cjpeaceful Offline
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Post: #14
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
Oh, and this may not be true with all vehicles, but on my car, there is a one-way valve which sits directly infront of the master cyclinder. I wonder if this how Ford keeps the master cylinder vacuum diaphram in the right place at all times allowing the "power brakes" to work correctly whenever...hmmm...
11-12-2008 09:49 AM
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rzone Offline
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Post: #15
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
I tried today this setup with a 1.5 liter water bottle, sponge and my old and trusty vacuum gauge attached with a tee.
What I noticed:
Water is going into engine as a fine mist when I move throttle valve (short burst of acceleration). But after that, (less than a second), if I keep engine's revs up, vacuum is building in the bottle and no more suction. The good thing is that after I release the throttle, because suction point is between the air filter and throttle valve, vacuum drops and is ready for new cycle, which is ok because we need water mostly when we accelerate.
But I think that this setup can be improved. My 91 jetta has no PCV, only a hose from crankcase to intake manifold, above throttle valve. I want to divert this hose, filter the oil vapors ans insert it into the bottle, through a valve, using the crankcase gases to keep the bottle pressurized. If I can find a valve that can be opened when vacuum drops, I might have a setup that works.
What do you think of my idea?
11-12-2008 11:03 AM
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cjpeaceful Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
rzone, what you describe in the first part of your post is exactly what I see on my Mustang. Now, as far as what you say regarding the addition of the one way valve, this is what I want to try as well. But, I still think we need to increase the amount of vapor being produced. Even under a small amount of vacuum, it should be enough to "mist" the engine more so than what you or I currently have setup on our cars.

I just want to get to a point where I can install an easy and inexpensive system for my van. Seeing HHO injection is currently out of the question (mrs is still not budging).Wink
11-12-2008 01:55 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
With a brake booster check or a piece of pvc pipe, spring, marble and washers (lookylooky! Home made check valve!) we can assure vacuum in the bottle during throttle openings.
However.
This will not allow "recharging" of the bottle by way of less vacuum, nor will it allow passage of fumes during accelleration, as the check ball would be in the closed position, held there by the suction of the cannister side.
Anyhoo, that's where my thoughts went on this. The real problem is that we need the vapor during accelleration, not deceleration. This is the reason I'm working on steam injection as well. New thread:
http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=2577
(This post was last modified: 12-11-2008 08:25 AM by Gary.)
12-11-2008 08:18 AM
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Pilgrim Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
Hi guys,

how about fog / mist makers for pools or aquariums? With the output sent directly to inlet tubing? As much as I saw, they are 24 V driven and could be probably (still to experiment) "throttled" electronicaly. That way you do ot have to mess with the engine's vacuum setup.

Stefan
07-04-2011 09:01 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
This is being done with nebulizers, misters, and the like, but so far I've not heard of anyone getting results with them on naturally aspirated vehicles. Someone with a turbo or blower might have success, as racing has shown.
For the rest of us, I'm losing hope in the mere use of water alone. So far I've tried the vacuum mister on a 4 and 8 cylinder engine with nul results.
07-05-2011 04:25 AM
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stalt Offline
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Post: #20
RE: Negative vacuum water vapor injection
(07-05-2011 04:25 AM)Gary Wrote:  This is being done with nebulizers, misters, and the like, but so far I've not heard of anyone getting results with them on naturally aspirated vehicles. Someone with a turbo or blower might have success, as racing has shown.
For the rest of us, I'm losing hope in the mere use of water alone. So far I've tried the vacuum mister on a 4 and 8 cylinder engine with nul results.

I have an original "Humidifier for internal combustion engines"
This unit operates on Negative Pressure (Vacuum) from the intake manifold.
I have not installed it.
I talked with the inventor several years ago and he claimed to have success on older engines.
you can download a copy of the patent drawings at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1595626.html
12-04-2012 12:46 PM
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