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Neutral Cells purpose
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M98Ranger Offline
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Post: #1
Neutral Cells purpose
I am inclined to believe that the neutral cells purpose is more for creating space/ resistance / heat transfer across a +/- configuration. Here is what I got so far. You set up a ciruit of "cells" in parallel, which we can look at like resistors. For now lets pretend we just running a series of +-+-+-+-.....like that. So across each plate the resistance is identical, but the amps reduce through each cell more and more, the last cell having the smallest current. This means also that the voltage which is equal to current times resistance reduces across the plates.

Now we throw in a few neutrals in between like so, +nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-. Now I would assume that the resistance is going to go way up. The reason for this if I understand the Utube and articles is to keep the cell cool. If this is correct, why not just figure out what kind of voltage you want across each cell and then throw in a resistor that is going to give you that output. It doesn't make since to have a bunch of cells in the middle that are doing nothing but impeding flow and creating resistance.

I am probably missing the boat intirely again, but I would love it if someone could straighten out my misunderstanding.
12-29-2008 07:35 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Neutral Cells purpose
You add neutrals to divide the voltage across the cells to a more efficient 2 volts, which decreases heat and minimizes the tendency for your electrolyte to boil.

A resistor wastes electricity as heat. We're using neutrals for a reason, it does the same thing efficiently.

Rick

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12-29-2008 08:53 PM
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M98Ranger Offline
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RE: Neutral Cells purpose
(12-29-2008 08:53 PM)colchiro Wrote:  You add neutrals to divide the voltage across the cells to a more efficient 2 volts, which decreases heat and minimizes the tendency for your electrolyte to boil.

A resistor wastes electricity as heat. We're using neutrals for a reason, it does the same thing efficiently.

Okay, so you are reducing the voltage to 2 volts instead of the 12 or (actually more like 13.5 volts) that you get out of the vehicles battery. I don't see how this can be possible. (I am not saying that you are wrong, so don't get offended please.) Here is why.

Number 1:
-The seven +nnnn- cell sets in a typical dry cell are parallel wired correct?....
-Assuming they are parallel wired then voltage does not drop ever. You start with 13.5 volts and you end with 13.5 volts. That knowledge comes from ohms law primarily, where V=IR (R is fixed (its the plates right....like we agreed in your earlier post), and I is just the amperage that of whereever you are starting out at divided by the seven sets of cells. ie If we 36.5 Amps then, 36.5/7 (approximately 5.21 amps) is how many amps are traveling across each one of the (+nnnn-)s. If I is about 5.21 amps and V is 13.5 Volts, then 13.5/5 = R is (approximately) 2.589 ohms across each leg. And if we wanted to we could divide the 2.589 ohms by a total of 6 plates per leg to get the resistance across each plate to be .431507 ohms. If we multiply it by the 4 neutral plates we come up with a value of 1.73 ohms for the resistance of the 4 neutral plates and the electrolyte. 2.589-1.73 is the resistance of just the (+-) configuration (with the electrolyte solution between them) which equals .862973 ohms. Now 13.5 Volts at .86 ohms will run you 15.64 Amps, which is considerable more than the 5.21 amps you were running before. However, that amperage is for a cathode-anode separation distance of 2*.0625=0.125 inch. The amount of heat you would be producing would be much greater because the amperage is much higher, but I am going to look at doing some good old heat transfer calculations for cooling fins. Also, I am probably going to extend the distance between the cells in order to facilitate more convection. Also, I was thinking that the face plates would be a good place to put on fins and loose heat that way.
Woooooohooooooooo! That would help to make it a ton cheaper (loosing metal that you don't need, designing in a few heat sink fins, increase separation distance, throw out the need for the resevoir) and you are good to go turn up the juice and still keep it considerably cooler.

Thanks Colchiro for getting me thinking!
12-29-2008 11:56 PM
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M98Ranger Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Neutral Cells purpose
After getting an explanation for the Pulse Wave Modulator device (it's job), I am thinking that instead of plates between the +- cells we should place capacitors. This has several advantages over neutral plates. One advantage is cost of the Steele plate/fabrication of it and buying the neoprened seals will not be necessary. Additionally, a capacitor would function much more efficiently imo then just a metal plate with holes in it. Also, by taking out the plates you are opening up the flow for convection cooling. Wow, this is quite interesting. Well I had better go spend time with my wife before she beats me. Thanks everyone for everything.
12-30-2008 09:59 AM
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colchiro Offline
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RE: Neutral Cells purpose
(12-29-2008 11:56 PM)M98Ranger Wrote:  Number 1:
-The seven +nnnn- cell sets in a typical dry cell are parallel wired correct?....

Wrong. They are series. You have a pos at one end and a neg at the other with no connections to any plates in the middle.

Rick

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12-30-2008 10:18 AM
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benny Offline
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RE: Neutral Cells purpose
(12-30-2008 09:59 AM)M98Ranger Wrote:  After getting an explanation for the Pulse Wave Modulator device (it's job), I am thinking that instead of plates between the +- cells we should place capacitors. This has several advantages over neutral plates. One advantage is cost of the Steele plate/fabrication of it and buying the neoprened seals will not be necessary. Additionally, a capacitor would function much more efficiently imo then just a metal plate with holes in it. Also, by taking out the plates you are opening up the flow for convection cooling. Wow, this is quite interesting. Well I had better go spend time with my wife before she beats me. Thanks everyone for everything.

You're making this up as you go along?
No?
Ah well! Just proves that reading is not the same as understanding.

Each pair of plates, with electrolyte between them, IS a capacitor.
For a set of plates connected +NNNN-, you have effectively 5 individual capacitors connected in series.
Each neutral (non-connected) plate effectively becomes the negative plate for one cell, and the positive plate for the next cell in the series.

Voltage across individual cells = the applied voltage / number of cells or Applied voltage / (number of plates - 1) in the case of an HHO generator built to that spec.

Failure to grasp this most simple of ideas will result in you receiving an 'F' grade for this subject.

btw. these need to be 'leaky' capacitors, otherwise there would be liitle or no current flow once the capacitor reached maximum charge. No current, no electrolysis. No electrolysis, no HHO production.
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2008 01:17 PM by benny.)
12-30-2008 01:15 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Neutral Cells purpose
(12-29-2008 11:56 PM)M98Ranger Wrote:  Number 1:
-The seven +nnnn- cell sets in a typical dry cell are parallel wired correct?....

(12-30-2008 10:18 AM)colchiro Wrote:  Wrong. They are series. You have a pos at one end and a neg at the other with no connections to any plates in the middle.

I'm sorry, I didn't read your message close enough.

Yes the 7 cells are in parallel. I incorrectly thought you were talking about the 6 plates in each, which is in series.

Rick

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12-30-2008 03:18 PM
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M98Ranger Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Neutral Cells purpose
(12-30-2008 01:15 PM)benny Wrote:  You're making this up as you go along?
No?
Ah well! Just proves that reading is not the same as understanding.

Benny, perhaps you are not aware but EVERYTHING has a capacitance and a resistance. The earth itself is sometimes called a "self-repairing" capacitor. But I don't expect you to believe that from a "bookworm". So here is an address with a picture to help you understand.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/a...itator.htm

Additionally a freaking wire hooked up to a battery in a circuit is a "CAPACITOR". YOU ARE A CAPACITOR.....YOU ALSO ARE A RESISTOR. So what is your point?

Additionally, not that I care very much, but contrary to your belief that all I do is read (which is inferred from the statement that "reading is not the same as understanding"), I do hands on experiments often and have manufactured many things. As to whether I am "making this up" as I go along. Well, some people realize that the answers are not just handed to you, instead you have to assess the situation, ponder, brainstorm, get other opinions and then through systematic elimination choose the best choice of action. Sorry if my method of collaboration to solve a problem doesn't appeal to you.
PS: Application is what mechanical engineers do. Physicists and scientists figure out the theory and we apply it. So don't talk about things that you don't know. And I would bet that you don't based on your condescending attitude. It makes you look like a silly goose.

Third, "leaky" is an adjective. Capacitors don't "leak". What you are talking about has to do with the impedance (not to be confused with "impotence") of a practical capacitor. A practical capacitor can be visualized as an ideal capacitor in parallel with a resistor. Therefore each one of the plates, "practical capacitors" has an impedance, which is why I chose to treat the problem the way I did.

(12-30-2008 01:15 PM)benny Wrote:  Voltage across individual cells = the applied voltage / number of cells or Applied voltage / (number of plates - 1) in the case of an HHO generator built to that spec.

Failure to grasp this most simple of ideas will result in you receiving an 'F' grade for this subject.

Voltage across individual "cells" in a PARALLEL circuit IS THE SAME. IT DOES NOT CHANGE ACROSS ANY OF THE PLATES. Current CHANGES, but amperage does not change. That is basic physics man. Perhaps you are confused by the fact that the circuit we are working with is a "Series-Parallel combination". By the way, I am at a 3.55 gpa right now with 122 credits under my belt. I am not too worried about flunking. Perhaps you ought to do what you accused me of doing TOO MUCH of, ie READ (a little more) to say the least.

Just to make sure that you drop the issue I will go get a quote out of my Physics textbook. This is from Physics for Scientists and Engineers by Raymond A. Serway 6th edition (its the same in the 7th edition also)....and physics books don't get basic definitions wrong so please do not say that the text is wrong. From page 803, in section 26.3 "Combinations of Capacitors", and under the subheading "Parallel Combination" in the first paragraph, last sentence it says,

"Thus, [this next part is in bold in the text to show how important it is....evidently people get screwed up occasionally when trying to maneuver this topic] the individual potential differences across capacitors connected in parallel are the SAME and are equal to the potential difference applied across the combination." It is okay to challenge people. But you should not do it in a disrespectful manner when they were polite in the first place. That is common courtesy your momma should have taught you.

(12-30-2008 01:15 PM)benny Wrote:  Each neutral (non-connected) plate effectively becomes the negative plate for one cell, and the positive plate for the next cell in the series.

You can call them positive negative.....its correct. It is about as correct as cutting up a piece of wire into 50 imaginary sections and saying that "section 1 is positive" and section 2 is negative"...etc., all the way on down the line. It is useless information. But true I will admit.
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2008 07:23 PM by M98Ranger.)
12-30-2008 04:13 PM
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M98Ranger Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Neutral Cells purpose
I was just thinking about a real cheap way to make "neutral" cells or what would happen if you used a PWM in conjuction with the 7 sets of cells and then in series with each cell you could wire in a "homemade" type inductor made out of coiled wire.....so you would have seven coiled wire loops (each loop having a specific as yet to be determined number of loops) in between the 7 parallel wired cells. Then if you wanted to increase inductance you just put more loops in it, if you want to decrease it you reduce the loops. If you really want to increase the inductance you put a nail in it to make a solenoid like deal. That would be so cheap. Just the cost of a few inches of wire some shrink wrap. And the cool thing is that you could just fool around with it on the fly....it would be very easy to compare production at different inductances. I want to see people try it! I am going to try it out in a few weeks hopefully.
(12-30-2008 03:18 PM)colchiro Wrote:  Wrong. They are series. You have a pos at one end and a neg at the other with no connections to any plates in the middle.

I'm sorry, I didn't read your message close enough.

Yes the 7 cells are in parallel. I incorrectly thought you were talking about the 6 plates in each, which is in series.

No problem.
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2008 07:31 PM by M98Ranger.)
12-30-2008 07:15 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Neutral Cells purpose
Benny, perhaps you are not aware but EVERYTHING has a capacitance and a resistance. The earth itself is sometimes called a "self-repairing" capacitor. But I don't expect you to believe that from a "bookworm".

Point by point response.

1. So here is an address with a picture to help you understand.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/a...itator.htm


Link doesn't work.

2. Additionally a freaking wire hooked up to a battery in a circuit is a "CAPACITOR". YOU ARE A CAPACITOR.....YOU ALSO ARE A RESISTOR. So what is your point?


Technically speaking, a single wire is not, and can't be, by definition, a capacitor. A wire placed in parallel to a second wire, or surface, at a different voltage potential to your first wire, will display capacitance between the two wires, or wire and surface.



3. Additionally, not that I care very much, but contrary to your belief that all I do is read (which is inferred from the statement that "reading is not the same as understanding"), I do hands on experiments often and have manufactured many things. As to whether I am "making this up" as I go along. Well, some people realize that the answers are not just handed to you, instead you have to assess the situation, ponder, brainstorm, get other opinions and then through systematic elimination choose the best choice of action. Sorry if my method of collaboration to solve a problem doesn't appeal to you.
PS: Application is what mechanical engineers do. Physicists and scientists figure out the theory and we apply it. So don't talk about things that you don't know. And I would bet that you don't based on your condescending attitude. It makes you look like a silly goose.



Major difference between mechanical and electrical/electronics engineers is that the second of these is required to have a little more than a working knowledge of electrical engineering theory.

As to speaking about things I don't know. . .

I am not a mechanical engineer. I was, until I retired, an electrical/electronics engineer, qualified to University degree standard. Might be one reason why I tend to over simplify to let others have some understanding of the points I try to make. Condescending? Me? Never. At least I don't think I am.

Bit late for goose. Christmas is past tense for this year..


[color=#6B8E23]
4.

Third, "leaky" is an adjective. Capacitors don't "leak". What you are talking about has to do with the impedance (not to be confused with "impotence") of a practical capacitor. A practical capacitor can be visualized as an ideal capacitor in parallel with a resistor. Therefore each one of the plates, "practical capacitors" has an impedance, which is why I chose to treat the problem the way I did.


A simplified definition of a capacitor. . A 'perfect' capacitor consists of two conductors/plates/whatever, at different voltage potential, with an insulator between them
What is commonly described as a 'leaky' capacitor, is one where the insulation between your conductors is less than perfect, and which in turn allows the capacitor to discharge internally.

Note that impedance is the term used to define effective electrical resistance in an AC circuit only, where OHM's law can not be applied directly using the resistive component only.

Impedance is a combination of DC resistance, capacitive reactance, and inductive reactance.
DC resistance is a fixed value, inductive and capacitive reactances are dependent on the frequency of the power supply to a circuit.



5. (Yesterday 09:15 PM)benny Wrote: Voltage across individual cells = the applied voltage / number of cells or Applied voltage / (number of plates - 1) in the case of an HHO generator built to that spec.

Failure to grasp this most simple of ideas will result in you receiving an 'F' grade for this subject.


Voltage across individual "cells" in a PARALLEL circuit IS THE SAME. IT DOES NOT CHANGE ACROSS ANY OF THE PLATES. Current CHANGES, but amperage does not change. That is basic physics man. Perhaps you are confused by the fact that the circuit we are working with is a "Series-Parallel combination". By the way, I am at a 3.55 gpa right now with 122 credits under my belt. I am not too worried about flunking. Perhaps you ought to do what you accused me of doing TOO MUCH of, ie READ (a little more) to say the least.



Can't argue with that, except to say that the use of the word 'cell' to describe both a single cell, consisting of two plates with electrolyte between them, is unfortunately used by some to describe multiple cells, (two plates with electrolyte), connected in various combinations of series/parallel


e.g.

+NNNN- describes a single set of cells connected in series.

-NNNN+NNNN- describes two sets of series cells, as above, effectively connected in parallel

As for reading, I do still read some of the latest technical papers which still appear in the mail from time to time. Keeps me abreast of current technology.



6. (Yesterday 09:15 PM)benny Wrote: Each neutral (non-connected) plate effectively becomes the negative plate for one cell, and the positive plate for the next cell in the series.


You can call them positive negative.....its correct. It is about as correct as cutting up a piece of wire into 50 imaginary sections and saying that "section 1 is positive" and section 2 is negative"...etc., all the way on down the line. It is useless information. But true I will admit.


Here I stand by what I said originally. A working knowlege of what happens when you add or remove neutral plates from a series bank of cells is just a little bit more than what you term 'useless information'.
By adding neutral plates, you effectively reduce the voltage (potential difference) across each individual cell (two plates and electrolyte), and vice versa if you remove neutral plates from the set up. Using this you have a simple, but inefficient way of controlling current, when used in conjunction with electrolyte strength variation. Hence the use of PWM with some systems. Note that some people are experimenting with series cells with upward of 60 plates, connected across high voltage (DC) using this simple technique. PWM not included.


7.

RE: Neutral Cells purpose
I was just thinking about a real cheap way to make "neutral" cells or what would happen if you used a PWM in conjuction with the 7 sets of cells and then in series with each cell you could wire in a "homemade" type inductor made out of coiled wire.....so you would have seven coiled wire loops (each loop having a specific as yet to be determined number of loops) in between the 7 parallel wired cells. Then if you wanted to increase inductance you just put more loops in it, if you want to decrease it you reduce the loops. If you really want to increase the inductance you put a nail in it to make a solenoid like deal. That would be so cheap. Just the cost of a few inches of wire some shrink wrap. And the cool thing is that you could just fool around with it on the fly....it would be very easy to compare production at different inductances. I want to see people try it! I am going to try it out in a few weeks hopefully.


Remember the definition of a cell. two plates with electrolyte between.
A wire inductor hardly falls into that category.

Taking a single part of your proposed system, a single cell/inductor combination.

An inductor, unless fed from an alternating voltage supply, will simply charge until it reaches a maximum charge state, then will act as a pure resistor. The single inductor won't discharge unless current is reversed, or the inductor is shorted.

Have a look at Stan Meyer's circuit for HHO production. THis circuit uses inductors in series, supposedly for creating resonance.
It is generally perceived that Stan, either as an omission, or as a 'gotcha', has left out some parts of his circuit diagram.


All you would be doing basically is adding resistance into your circuit. ie. a source of power loss, dissipated as heat.



In any case, now that we have both agreed that I know absolutely nothing about electrical theory, I will, as you suggest, no longer respond to this thread
(This post was last modified: 12-31-2008 09:33 AM by benny.)
12-31-2008 05:02 AM
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