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New wideband AFR EFIE
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John Sargent Offline
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Post: #1
New wideband AFR EFIE
Howdy guys,

This is general info for all. If you bought, or are buying, one of the new wideband AFR EFIE sensors from fuel-saver, I got one and they seem to work fine. One note though - this efie is designed for dual (2) AFR sensors, and have 2 connections, one with blue wire, and one with white wire. I have only one AFR sensor, and didn't know which to hook up or if it should be both wires.

Wrote Bruce, and he said to pick one or the other (white or blue) but NOT both. So don't connect both wires to one sensor or you may have problems.

Hope this is helpful to you. I am looking forward to testing mine out with my dry cell on my 07 Honda Accord.

John
01-06-2009 03:36 AM
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mike Offline
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Post: #2
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
Yes, this is correct. These are duals and the un-used channel should NOT be connected. Just use one output wire if there is only one AFR sensor to be modified.

Thanks for bringing this up. I'll clarify this point in the instructions.

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01-06-2009 08:20 AM
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2.0Turbo Offline
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Post: #3
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
(01-06-2009 08:20 AM)mike Wrote:  Yes, this is correct. These are duals and the un-used channel should NOT be connected. Just use one output wire if there is only one AFR sensor to be modified.

Thanks for bringing this up. I'll clarify this point in the instructions.

Is this efie used in conjunction with Dutchman's optimizer? Or is Dutchman's "optimizer" just a slicked out EFIE? Thanks, Mike.
Mike, is the Dutchman optimizer used in conjunction with these EFIEs? Here's another question: Is the Dutchman optimizer a fancy EFIE? Thanks.
(This post was last modified: 07-11-2009 08:49 AM by 2.0Turbo.)
07-11-2009 08:47 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #4
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
You mean the HAFC, which the FTC has been investigating for their questionable business ethics?

As far as we know, Mike's is the only true wideband efie on the market. I'd be very surprised if Dutchman's optimizer (which I know nothing about) was wideband.

Considering how many people trying to get a refund b/c of initial results that quickly disappeared (classic example of no efie), it's possible they don't use an efie. You'd have to check if there was a connection to the o2 sensor, especially if that wire was cut.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-11-2009 09:34 AM
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hhoelectronics Offline
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Post: #5
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
(07-11-2009 09:34 AM)colchiro Wrote:  As far as we know, Mike's is the only true wideband efie on the market.
As far as you know buddy. What is a "true" wideband efie in your mind? As far as you know........
An ignorant is not always right.
(This post was last modified: 08-08-2009 10:27 PM by hhoelectronics.)
08-08-2009 10:23 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #6
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
My definition of a "true" wideband efie is one that works with 4 wire o2's (like Toyotas and Hondas), and not one of the old style efies that works only with the 5th wire of compatible 5 wire o2's.

Most of the wideband sensors on the road these days will be the Toyotas and Hondas, introduced in large quantities about 1989. GM and Ford have only stepped up in the last couple years.

In my mind, a "true" wide band efie will work on all these, not a couple of Jeeps and Chrysler products.

Do the ones you sell work with all of these vehicles?

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
08-09-2009 08:00 AM
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hhoelectronics Offline
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RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
(08-09-2009 08:00 AM)colchiro Wrote:  Do the ones you sell work with all of these vehicles?

Who said that I sell anything?
However, how was this magic number, 5.3mA chosen? This is what I call precision...

http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/afr_efie_install.html

"When turned clockwise all the way it will add about 5.3 milliamps, which will lean your engine way more than it probably should."

Probably?... For sure, not probably.
Any wideband sensors need less than that:

"http://www.tayloredge.com/reference/Chemistry/oxygensensor3.pdf"

"When the fuel mixture goes rich, even just a little bit, the O2 sensor's voltage output shoots When the air/fuel mixture is perfectly balanced at
14.7:1 (the stoichiometric ratio and lambda equals 2), the sensor produces no output current. When the air/fuel mixture is rich, the sensor produces a
"negative" current that goes from zero to about 2.0 milliamps when lambda is 0.7 and the air/fuel ratio is near 11:1.
When the air/fuel mixture is lean, the sensor produces a "positive" current that goes from zero up to 1.5 milliamps as the mixture becomes almost air."

This is from the manufacture, Bosch.

And I have the same question for digital EFIE. How does this work? Any narrowband sensor will go to 0.1V at 15:1 and at 14.7:1 will generate 0.45V. This is a change of 2%, only. How can this EFIE distinguish between 15:1 and any other higher ratio, since the output of the sensor is the same, 0.1V?...
Please, technical answers.
08-09-2009 09:09 AM
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mike Offline
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Post: #8
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
hhoelectronics,

Regarding the wide band EFIE:

What I was reporting was the top end of adjustment that the EFIE will do, if the pot is turned up all the way. That document was written back when we were still prototyping, but at the time that document was written, there were limited tests done on wide band vehicles, so we didn't have a good cross section of practical testing. We have since reduced the top end to 3 mA, and will be reducing to 2 mA in our next production run. But in all cases, when you turn the pot all the way counter-clockwise there is no change to the current pump at all. So this is just the top of the range the EFIE is capable of.

I understand that the current reverses direction at stoich. Our device shifts any current, positive or negative, towards the rich end of the scale, by the amount set on the pot. The rule of addition to negative numbers applies, so a negative .25 mA + 1 mA becomes a positive .75 mA.

So far, I've not seen any other device that works on the current pump wires of a wide band sensor. This feature allows our device to work on 4-wire wide bands such as used on Toyotas and 5-wire wide bands that have a voltage reference that changes proportionately with the current. It is possible that a voltage adding type of device could be created to work with the 5th wire on 5 wire types. But there is no guarantee that any given manufacturer's ECU is even using the 5th wire, and not using the current pump for its AFR readings.

I think that's what colchiro meant when he was saying a "true wide band". And while his choice of words may not have been technically accurate, what he was communicating was. Are you aware of another device that affects the current pump like this? So far, I haven't seen one anywhere else.

As for the digital EFIE: I wrote an article about how it works here:
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/digital_efie.html
Its not very technical, but it should communicate the basic concept of how it works.

Now look. Its OK to present a different viewpoint, and its also OK to show off your own devices here. But I don't appreciate you being snide about our products and our forum moderator. C'mon, if you have some constructive criticism, then fine. But if you're just here to throw stones, why don't you tell us where your glass house is?

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08-09-2009 11:38 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #9
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
(08-09-2009 11:38 AM)mike Wrote:  I think that's what colchiro meant when he was saying a "true wide band". And while his choice of words may not have been technically accurate, what he was communicating was.

I'm a lover, not a scholar.Wink

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
08-09-2009 04:11 PM
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hhoelectronics Offline
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Post: #10
RE: New wideband AFR EFIE
(08-09-2009 11:38 AM)mike Wrote:  We have since reduced the top end to 3 mA, and will be reducing to 2 mA in our next production run.

Ok, good enough, I appreciate that you have corrected the range and the mistake. This is productive. Congratulations, good job!

(08-09-2009 11:38 AM)mike Wrote:  Are you aware of another device that affects the current pump like this? So far, I haven't seen one anywhere else.

Yes, I have one, don't worry.

(08-09-2009 11:38 AM)mike Wrote:  As for the digital EFIE: I wrote an article about how it works here:
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/digital_efie.html
Its not very technical, but it should communicate the basic concept of how it works.

I agree with you, it is not very technical. And I have asked for a technical answer, specifically. Can you give me a technical answer? Please...

The narrow band sensor has more like a square wave output, not a sine wave. This is why your answer is wrong, in my opinion. The sensor is a switch, the output is digital, so it has to be treated as the MAP sensor from FORD or GM. Otherwise the maximum improvement you can get is 2%.
You can not make any difference in analog domain between 15:1 and 16:1 with this sensor. So, your digital EFIE has a digital output, but can not lean more than 15:1. If you have a technical explanation, I am listening.

(08-09-2009 11:38 AM)mike Wrote:  Now look. Its OK to present a different viewpoint, and its also OK to show off your own devices here. But I don't appreciate you being snide about our products. C'mon, if you have some constructive criticism, then fine. But if you're just here to throw stones, why don't you tell us where your glass house is?

All my comments were correct, and you agreed with that. It was also constructive, because you are going to change to 2mA for wide band sensors.
My glass house is open to any people who want to buy good quality products in high quantity and sign an NDA (non disclosure agreement). If you are interested, please let me know.
I do not throw any stones, I am just asking for details about how your product works, because according to the theory will not work.

(08-09-2009 11:38 AM)mike Wrote:  But I don't appreciate you being snide about... our forum moderator.
(08-09-2009 04:11 PM)colchiro Wrote:  I'm a lover, not a scholar.Wink

Well, I guess he made his choice.
08-09-2009 10:17 PM
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