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No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
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candria77 Offline
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Post: #1
No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
I have a 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser. I installed a HHO Generator that came with a PWM module as well as an EFIE. The EFIE it came with did not seem to work even though the company (http://www.hybridconversions.com)I bought it from claimed that they had their system working on an FJ. I am committed to giving this thing every chance I can as long is it doesnt break my bank and I still see a ROI. So I purchased a wide band EFIE from here had that installed and everything seems to be working, except I am not seeing any changes positive or negative in MPG. The HHO generator is kicking out some serious Hydrogen as I have done a torch test. It is hooked up to the air intake manifold, and I have the EFIE hooked up to a seperate switch. I am not a mechanic, but have been working with two mechanics on this, but I would rather not spend any more cash on them if I dont have to.

I have a couple if hunches with my limited motor vehicle knowledge.

1) I cant see it, but I am not convinced the HHO is being sucked into the air intake manifold from the bubbler(resorvior)

2) if it is being sucked in, I wonder if the setting on my wide band EFIE is not optimized. I just got it to where its in open loop and I am not getting any check engine lights and its running smoothly at idle.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to look for?
01-21-2009 07:25 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
We're going to need some specs.

What size engine?
How many amps is your cell drawing?
How many LPM does your cell produce? (Have you checked it?)

You'll need 1-2 LPM per 2 liters of engine size (depending on who you ask).

Toyotas can be a tough nut to crack, I suspect the VVT-i (variable valve timing) engine is to blame, or at least that's my theory.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
01-21-2009 08:16 PM
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candria77 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
Thanks for Responding.

My Engine size is 4.0 6 Cyl

Cell was rated at 1.to 5 ltr, and looks to be cranking nicely. Though I do not know how to test it to make sure.

How do I test to see how many amps its drawing. I assume I will need an amp meter. How do I test it?
01-23-2009 08:15 AM
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benny Offline
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RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
(01-23-2009 08:15 AM)candria77 Wrote:  Thanks for Responding.

My Engine size is 4.0 6 Cyl

Cell was rated at 1.to 5 ltr, and looks to be cranking nicely. Though I do not know how to test it to make sure.

How do I test to see how many amps its drawing. I assume I will need an amp meter. How do I test it?

Connect an ammeter in series with your generator. Make sure tt is capable of reading at least 25-30 amps. Most multi-meters are limited to 10 amps, or 20 with an expensive one..
Have a look around Utube. Google 'HHO'. There are numerous videos which will show you how to build a simple pop bottle measuring device. Accurate enough for what you need.

Had a look at the video on the company website (link you posted). I am singularly unimpressed with same.
No way of telling how efficiently their generator works. No current draw stated, or HHO production rate measured.

Wonder why they show nitric acid on their video.
Nitric acid as an electrolyte for HHO, or hydroxy, production is a new one on me.
Could produce some unwanted byproducts.
Nitrogen gas? Relatively harmless but does nothing for engine performance.
Nitrous oxide perhaps? Produces extra engine power, but only advisable for very limited use as a quick power burst in most standard production vehicles. Good for a laugh, providing the right type of nitrous oxide, laughing gas, is produced..

If nitric acid is what is being used as an electrolyte, I suggest you have a look at the Wiki at the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2009 11:39 AM by benny.)
01-23-2009 11:15 AM
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candria77 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
I am using Soidum Hydroxide as an electrolite, and It is definitely producing Hydrogen, so I am not worried about that. I will tell you what, I am getting close to my witts end with this thing as I have been at it since November. No fault by own, but I think I am getting ready to say enough is enough. I would like to get this thing to work but I keep hearing Toyotas are tough to get to work on. I thought the wide band sensor was it, but I am not sure how much more effort and money I want to sink into this thing.
01-23-2009 12:39 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #6
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
(01-23-2009 12:39 PM)candria77 Wrote:  I am using Soidum Hydroxide as an electrolite, and It is definitely producing Hydrogen, so I am not worried about that. I will tell you what, I am getting close to my witts end with this thing as I have been at it since November. No fault by own, but I think I am getting ready to say enough is enough. I would like to get this thing to work but I keep hearing Toyotas are tough to get to work on. I thought the wide band sensor was it, but I am not sure how much more effort and money I want to sink into this thing.

Throw some time, rather than more money at this.

If you can, get a reasonably accurate reading for current and HHO production. Makes it easier for people to comment or make suggestions as to how you might make some progress.

Even getting the right combination of gas volume, EFIE settings etc etc etc can take time.
Perseverance is the real key to success.

As I said, the video by the seller of this unit gives little to no useful information other than the size, number, and type of steel of the plates used in this generator.
Anyone can make bubbles and use a gas igniter to make pretty splashes and bangs.
Anyone can make different sizes of bubbles depending on the diameter of pipe used. Still gives no information as to rate of generation, nor the amperage used to produce the HHO.

And yes. Toyotas can be a bitch. Welcome to my world.
(This post was last modified: 01-23-2009 04:12 PM by benny.)
01-23-2009 04:08 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #7
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
(01-23-2009 04:08 PM)benny Wrote:  
(01-23-2009 12:39 PM)candria77 Wrote:  I am using Soidum Hydroxide as an electrolite, and It is definitely producing Hydrogen, so I am not worried about that. I will tell you what, I am getting close to my witts end with this thing as I have been at it since November. No fault by own, but I think I am getting ready to say enough is enough. I would like to get this thing to work but I keep hearing Toyotas are tough to get to work on. I thought the wide band sensor was it, but I am not sure how much more effort and money I want to sink into this thing.

Throw some time, rather than more money at this.

If you can, get a reasonably accurate reading for current and HHO production. Makes it easier for people to comment or make suggestions as to how you might make some progress.

Even getting the right combination of gas volume, EFIE settings etc etc etc can take time.
Perseverance is the real key to success.

As I said, the video by the seller of this unit gives little to no useful information other than the size, number, and type of steel of the plates used in this generator.
Anyone can make bubbles and use a gas igniter to make pretty splashes and bangs.
Anyone can make different sizes of bubbles depending on the diameter of pipe used. Still gives no information as to rate of generation, nor the amperage used to produce the HHO.

And yes. Toyotas can be a bitch. Welcome to my world.

Candria77:

Don't give up; HHO works; if you give up big oil wins. Benny is 100% right on right. It's perseverance in the long run. Benny knows what he's talking about; he's got a diesel project going that gets at least 20% gains. He won't admit to this but he was almost bald from pulling his hair out due to no mpg gains; then Eureka, he found the diesel key. He's in testing patent phase now and thus is in a "quiet period". I see you know what ROI means.

Please do yourself and all the Toy owners and the USA a favor. Stick with it for a while. Use the scientific method; data collection; change; data collection; accept or reject the change. Here's my real point. Toys are probably the best [just beat GM in worldwide sales]. They're truly hard to alter with HHO and EFIEs; but, we've got to find out how to do it with Toys. The wide band EFIE sold here works wonders with Hemis; I'm sure it works with Toys. Not to be judgmental or racist, but Japanese built cars are just like the Japanese culture; somewhat hard to change, almost inflexible. I'm a Nissan fan; got almost bald like Benny with no results until I pumped about 3 lpm into a 3 liter V6; then, it still wasn't Eureka; just a start. Next came the slow, I mean really slow, adjustment process of the EFIE. Realize that no matter what kind of HHO generator you have it does not produce HHO at a constant rate. I went from ~31mpg @ 60 mph, 2000 rpm, level interstate, no wind to ~41 mpg same conditions. Mixed highway and city ~29mpg; less now in cold weather. Used to get 22 mpg mixed. You're a good test case; wish you were doing the work instead of "mechanics". The low gas prices won't last for long. If you were an arab Sheik and your wealth and your childrens' and grandchildrens' wealth was in a finite pool under your home what would you tell your grandson when he asked you: " Granddad, should I sell now at low prices just to keep up with the Joneses, or, cut back and sell at higher prices?" If you believe in "peak oil" you know the answer. Stick with it; get your hands dirty; find out how it works; share your data with us; Toys rule. The formula for mpg gain has worked for every ICE vehicle currently in production: sufficient HHO + EFIE = mpg gain. Good Luck.
01-23-2009 07:35 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #8
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
(01-23-2009 07:35 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(01-23-2009 04:08 PM)benny Wrote:  
(01-23-2009 12:39 PM)candria77 Wrote:  I am using Soidum Hydroxide as an electrolite, and It is definitely producing Hydrogen, so I am not worried about that. I will tell you what, I am getting close to my witts end with this thing as I have been at it since November. No fault by own, but I think I am getting ready to say enough is enough. I would like to get this thing to work but I keep hearing Toyotas are tough to get to work on. I thought the wide band sensor was it, but I am not sure how much more effort and money I want to sink into this thing.

Throw some time, rather than more money at this.

If you can, get a reasonably accurate reading for current and HHO production. Makes it easier for people to comment or make suggestions as to how you might make some progress.

Even getting the right combination of gas volume, EFIE settings etc etc etc can take time.
Perseverance is the real key to success.

As I said, the video by the seller of this unit gives little to no useful information other than the size, number, and type of steel of the plates used in this generator.
Anyone can make bubbles and use a gas igniter to make pretty splashes and bangs.
Anyone can make different sizes of bubbles depending on the diameter of pipe used. Still gives no information as to rate of generation, nor the amperage used to produce the HHO.

And yes. Toyotas can be a bitch. Welcome to my world.

Candria77:

Don't give up; HHO works; if you give up big oil wins. Benny is 100% right on right. It's perseverance in the long run. Benny knows what he's talking about; he's got a diesel project going that gets at least 20% gains. He won't admit to this but he was almost bald from pulling his hair out due to no mpg gains; then Eureka, he found the diesel key. He's in testing patent phase now and thus is in a "quiet period". I see you know what ROI means.

Please do yourself and all the Toy owners and the USA a favor. Stick with it for a while. Use the scientific method; data collection; change; data collection; accept or reject the change. Here's my real point. Toys are probably the best [just beat GM in worldwide sales]. They're truly hard to alter with HHO and EFIEs; but, we've got to find out how to do it with Toys. The wide band EFIE sold here works wonders with Hemis; I'm sure it works with Toys. Not to be judgmental or racist, but Japanese built cars are just like the Japanese culture; somewhat hard to change, almost inflexible. I'm a Nissan fan; got almost bald like Benny with no results until I pumped about 3 lpm into a 3 liter V6; then, it still wasn't Eureka; just a start. Next came the slow, I mean really slow, adjustment process of the EFIE. Realize that no matter what kind of HHO generator you have it does not produce HHO at a constant rate. I went from ~31mpg @ 60 mph, 2000 rpm, level interstate, no wind to ~41 mpg same conditions. Mixed highway and city ~29mpg; less now in cold weather. Used to get 22 mpg mixed. You're a good test case; wish you were doing the work instead of "mechanics". The low gas prices won't last for long. If you were an arab Sheik and your wealth and your childrens' and grandchildrens' wealth was in a finite pool under your home what would you tell your grandson when he asked you: " Granddad, should I sell now at low prices just to keep up with the Joneses, or, cut back and sell at higher prices?" If you believe in "peak oil" you know the answer. Stick with it; get your hands dirty; find out how it works; share your data with us; Toys rule. The formula for mpg gain has worked for every ICE vehicle currently in production: sufficient HHO + EFIE = mpg gain. Good Luck.

I agree with all of the above but there is a small error in thomasbala's post.
He is confusing me with another forum user, BEN.
I'm not the one with the diesel project.
I'm the other one. The good looking, but relatively poor, one.

Regards.
Benny.
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2009 01:59 AM by benny.)
01-24-2009 01:58 AM
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candria77 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
I do appreciate all the support, and despite not making any gains, I am still curious if it works. So I need to by an AMP meter now, I don't even know how to use the dam thing ( I am a software consultant). I have to go to the hardware store and ask for this thing, and I am probably going to sound like Micheal Keaton... Yea, 110, 120, whatever it takes. This bottle test looks comical. So now I have to be McGiver. I need an empty water bottle, some PVC, and threaded screws, and poof! I can save the day and America from big oil! The sad thing is that I am probably going to try this stuff because I am stubborn. All my friends are telling me this thing cant work, and to not believe all the internet geniuses out there (no offense to the internet geniuses on this site)...

Ok, off to the hardware store tomorrow!
01-24-2009 08:44 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: No MPG increase as of yet, Looking for suggestions
(01-24-2009 08:44 PM)candria77 Wrote:  So I need to by an AMP meter now, I don't even know how to use the dam thing ( I am a software consultant).
You could probably do without the ammeter right now. Circuit breakers [30amp; buy 'em at AutoZone] will keep you from frying your wiring harness. Keep it simple. I'm assuming you know how to program and I'll bet you started with Basic before you programmed in C++. Do the same thing here. Start simple and try to stay simple. Measuring your HHO output is easy. You need a 5 gal. pail; a .5 liter water bottle [they're all .5 liters no matter what brand you buy] and some clear plastic 1/4 inch tubing [buy it at Lowes, Home Depot, even Pet Smart, aquarium section]. fill the pail with water; submerse your water bottle in the pail; run your HHO through your 1/4 inch tubing to the submersed and upside down water bottle and start timing how long it takes to fill it up. Easy, now do the math. Hope you get close to 1 lpm or more. I like to see about 1 lpm of HHO per liter of engine displacement, but for starters 1 lpm just might do. If you're not getting 1 lpm, increase the strength of your electrolyte until you get at least 1 lpm. If you're getting 1 lpm start adjusting the EFIE; read the docs section on this board. Sufficient HHO + EFIE = mpg gain. You'll probably have to spend about $20.00 for a digital multimeter to adjust the EFIE but you'll use that multimeter for a lot more projects. Before you know it you'll be programming microprocessors with open source Arduino and making your own pulse width modulater. It's like most things; 98% work; 2% intelligence and just about everyone has that. Good Luck.
01-25-2009 01:03 AM
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