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Not a Believer Yet
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toolmanmike Offline
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Post: #1
Not a Believer Yet
Ok, I've read it all, watched it all, seen many forums and spent weeks working in my own shop/vehicles/computer. I really need some proof. My designs include:
wall plates ranging from 2-12
tubular design with neutrals and without
bolt design
and wire design

I am repeatedly disapointed by the output vs. amperage load. Yeh, I CAN make over 1Lpm. but you can't hold the heat back from getting too hot for any reasonable container you could stuff under the hood. I have two units in one vehicle. I use only high quallity SS. ONLY KOH, ONLY soldered circuitry.

I know all about the EFIE's and I understand the benifit BUT, are you guys really boosting your car's combustion or just leaning out your mix with these. I can lean my car out a little bit and not destroy it in normal driving. If you are actually supplimenting with a sufficient amount of HHO- fine, but without an EGT, you don't know what you are doing to that engine over the long run.

Ok, bottom line, no matter what design I use, AMPS=HHO! period! If you are not running 20amps you aren't getting that 1LPM we all seem to look for. AND, you can't run 20amps in a container holding less than 1 gallon. Just gets too hot.

TEll me I am wrong, and prove it! PLEASE.
07-15-2008 09:14 AM
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Not a Believer Yet
toolman,
huge qty's not necessary. Brown's gas is a catalyzer, not a fuel.
heat will increase production in properly built unit - the only limit is to not boil the water, boiling will interfere with water contact on the plates. It is actually beneficial to heat the generator with coolant lines or air off radiator.
EFIE does not provide a benefit, per se..........it is essential to results (on OBDI & II vehicles). In fact, many will lose mpg with brown's gas and no EFIE. Tells computer to ignore increases in the O2 content in exhaust that result from combustion with hydrogen present in the air/fuel mixture.
Hydrogen alone will NOT give you results.
Most modern IC engines can run afr's up to 18/1 without consequence at cruise. lean burn damage is mostly an overblown falacy. The thing THEY HATE is the nox emmissions increase with lean burn. EPA stuff.
Try NaOH instead of the pottassium (KOH). Use between 4/1 and 8/1 by volume. You should notice higher production rates - amps/gas out. Cleaner too. Use only distilled water. Conataminants from tap water or mineral water will precip out in the generator and interfere with the faraday process.

sartech

toolmanmike Wrote:Ok, I've read it all, watched it all, seen many forums and spent weeks working in my own shop/vehicles/computer. I really need some proof. My designs include:
wall plates ranging from 2-12
tubular design with neutrals and without
bolt design
and wire design

I am repeatedly disapointed by the output vs. amperage load. Yeh, I CAN make over 1Lpm. but you can't hold the heat back from getting too hot for any reasonable container you could stuff under the hood. I have two units in one vehicle. I use only high quallity SS. ONLY KOH, ONLY soldered circuitry.

I know all about the EFIE's and I understand the benifit BUT, are you guys really boosting your car's combustion or just leaning out your mix with these. I can lean my car out a little bit and not destroy it in normal driving. If you are actually supplimenting with a sufficient amount of HHO- fine, but without an EGT, you don't know what you are doing to that engine over the long run.

Ok, bottom line, no matter what design I use, AMPS=HHO! period! If you are not running 20amps you aren't getting that 1LPM we all seem to look for. AND, you can't run 20amps in a container holding less than 1 gallon. Just gets too hot.

TEll me I am wrong, and prove it! PLEASE.
07-15-2008 09:55 AM
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cheapfuel Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Not a Believer Yet
I would like to add one more thing. You talked about heat. If you connect several units in series you will bring your amps down while still keeping your production up. The units need to be sealed and in their own electrolyte; ie completely separate units. Good luck. Lot depends on your vehicle type as well.
07-15-2008 01:15 PM
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howiemandel Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Not a Believer Yet
If your stuff is getting hot... you need to fix that, however, if you use vacuum in your car, the overall temp drops, and drops big time. With mason jars, i can drive 100 miles, get out and put my hand on the glass and leave it there. This is within a compartment that almost burns me, (the air) to get my hand on the damn jar.
07-15-2008 02:23 PM
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ocpd426 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Not a Believer Yet
howiemandel Wrote:If your stuff is getting hot... you need to fix that, however, if you use vacuum in your car, the overall temp drops, and drops big time. With mason jars, i can drive 100 miles, get out and put my hand on the glass and leave it there. This is within a compartment that almost burns me, (the air) to get my hand on the damn jar.
I am not a believer yet. Tried everything no more mpg
07-15-2008 06:34 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Not a Believer Yet
cheapfuel Wrote:I would like to add one more thing. You talked about heat. If you connect several units in series you will bring your amps down while still keeping your production up. The units need to be sealed and in their own electrolyte; ie completely separate units. Good luck. Lot depends on your vehicle type as well.

Yes, you already have 2 cells, hook them in series (6 volts on each) and make your electrolyte a bit stronger.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-15-2008 06:57 PM
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stevekos7 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Not a Believer Yet
I can sympathise with you Toolman, but if you consider it's all a learning cycle then it will stop you from getting too disappointed. Yes, there are always people that will boast and downright lie about their results, but there are also many honest folks who will tell the truth no matter what. And many of these are definitely getting measurable improvements from HHO, and it's not always the 'big HHO producers'. In my experience I have always found that if I follow the advice I get from several different sources it usually pays off. I am currently working on my 4th build, which is a sealed-in-series unit, but I have seen gradual improvements as I have followed the advice from others as I went. I started with a Water4Fuel clone, and it didn't work very well. Then I went to a 4 plate system that produced well but high heat. Then went to an 11 plate cell with neutrals. Works best of all, but need to run at 25 amps to get 1 lpm. I am convinced that the new 3x4plate cell will work much better and cooler. That's because I am gradually learning what all of the variables actually contribute to the system. But if this one doesn't work as well as expected, it's back to hammering the forums. Getting the information you need is free, but not always easy!

It's a bit disappointing when you don't just go straight to the best system to start with, but you can only start where you are and learn as you go.
07-15-2008 08:50 PM
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CraigBMM Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Not a Believer Yet
toolmanmike Wrote:Ok, I've read it all, watched it all, seen many forums and spent weeks working in my own shop/vehicles/computer. I really need some proof. My designs include:
wall plates ranging from 2-12
tubular design with neutrals and without
bolt design
and wire design

I am repeatedly disapointed by the output vs. amperage load. Yeh, I CAN make over 1Lpm. but you can't hold the heat back from getting too hot for any reasonable container you could stuff under the hood. I have two units in one vehicle. I use only high quallity SS. ONLY KOH, ONLY soldered circuitry.

I know all about the EFIE's and I understand the benifit BUT, are you guys really boosting your car's combustion or just leaning out your mix with these. I can lean my car out a little bit and not destroy it in normal driving. If you are actually supplimenting with a sufficient amount of HHO- fine, but without an EGT, you don't know what you are doing to that engine over the long run.

Ok, bottom line, no matter what design I use, AMPS=HHO! period! If you are not running 20amps you aren't getting that 1LPM we all seem to look for. AND, you can't run 20amps in a container holding less than 1 gallon. Just gets too hot.

TEll me I am wrong, and prove it! PLEASE.

a guy just built a 5 cell 10 plate design (2 plates each cell) in series that runs at 1 lpm at 8 amps .. it can be done .. just takes alot more electrolyte to make it work .. he's using 6 teaspoons of NaHO per gallon of water. http://www.fuel-saver.org/showthread.php?tid=974

you know i hear people saying the HHO isnt a fuel .. i disagree. those hydro bubbles exploding in tests tell me different. it is a fuel .. and we need to lean out the gasoline from the mix .. which when we adjust the map and o2 we are telling the comp to add more air less fuel .. since the air is actually a HHO and air mixed fuel !

we are adding fuel to the system here (Hydrogen and a very powerful oxidizer in Oxygen)

try to tell the guy running his truck completely off HHO that it isnt a fuel . lol
(This post was last modified: 07-16-2008 02:33 AM by CraigBMM.)
07-16-2008 02:29 AM
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cheapfuel Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Not a Believer Yet
How much HHO gas do you think one needs in order to have a 5.7 liter engine idle on just HHO (no gasoline)?
07-16-2008 04:45 AM
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Sartech Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Not a Believer Yet
HHO is a fuel in the sense it contains energy and will free burn. It is not a fuel in the sense we are trying to run our cars on it exclusively. Critical to understand the difference when working in this area. The extra H atom in HHO attaches to carbons in gasoline and causes the burn time to decrease, shorter burn-less heat-faster combustion cycle-cleaner exhaust-increased O2 in exhaust. The process is called catalyzing the fuel. Efforts to run on HHO alone are worthwhile but don't apply here. Stan Meyer, Joe cell etc. may be the key to on board energy production. Can't mix the two though-different efforts entirely due mostly to the huge qty's needed.
BTW-Have a friend who is getting 6 lpm from a joe cell @ 20 amps.
07-16-2008 05:34 AM
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