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Ozone gas generator
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RKS Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Ozone gas generator
Quote:Sir- I am just curious how this O3 works. Ozone is oxygen + 1 more molecule of oxygen. How does extra oxygen help in mileage improvement? The extra oxygen will usually combine with N to form 3 gases, one being No2, Nitrogen Dioxide which is the deadly pollution.

The free oxygen atom is highly reactive and this helps combustion. Even the ozone generated by the spark assists in this process.

Ozone is so reactive that it is very difficult to store, so Ozone is usually generated close to where it is to be utilised. Ozone generated on Earth is not going to make it to the Ozone layer, for instance, ending up as NO2, as you mention.

The Ozone generator that I use is placed in the car's air box so the ozone is sucked into the combustion chamber before it has had a chance to combine with nitrogen which it would probably do in a few minutes.

Until I get some objective test data I can only say that it has a 'feel-good' effect on me and my driving. Objective data will verify whether or not it has an actual effect, but I am very much aware of how easily one can convince one's self when only subjective evaluation of one's pet project is to hand Smile

I will be building a Mk.II version of my prototype and hopefully will have the test equipment up and running by then as well, sometime over the next month (is winter here).

Robert
06-02-2008 09:43 PM
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rpatzer Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Ozone gas generator
Sir- the air intake consists of 80% N and 20% O2. Any extra O2 in the system is going to combine with the N. That combination results in 3 gasses being produced: 1- N2O- laughing gas, 2- NO- Nitric Oxide and 3- NO2, Nitrogen Dioxide (pollution). Those gases are produced in the engine due to combustion. The lean-burn cars have an extra cat just to handle the increased NO2.
Leaner combustion produces more O2. That is why the emissions authorities settled on 14.7:1 ratio. That is the best ratio for emissions control. That ratio can be made leaner (more O2 and better mileage) but then you produce more NO2.
By you adding in more O2 to begin with, it seems to me you are adding to pollution.
The test would be to get smogged (unofficially) after you get your set up going to see what is coming out the tail pipe.
06-03-2008 05:28 AM
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RKS Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Ozone gas generator
rpatzer Wrote:Sir- the air intake consists of 80% N and 20% O2. Any extra O2 in the system is going to combine with the N. That combination results in 3 gasses being produced: 1- N2O- laughing gas, 2- NO- Nitric Oxide and 3- NO2, Nitrogen Dioxide (pollution). Those gases are produced in the engine due to combustion. The lean-burn cars have an extra cat just to handle the increased NO2.
Leaner combustion produces more O2. That is why the emissions authorities settled on 14.7:1 ratio. That is the best ratio for emissions control. That ratio can be made leaner (more O2 and better mileage) but then you produce more NO2.
By you adding in more O2 to begin with, it seems to me you are adding to pollution.
The test would be to get smogged (unofficially) after you get your set up going to see what is coming out the tail pipe.

I note that hybrid car design includes ozone generators at the experimental stage, but I think that benefit was not sufficient to justify their use on those cars.

The Ozone generator does not change the mix of gases - it causes O2 to break up into free oxygen atoms which may then form O3 (ozone) which is not stable and soon reacts.

I can get an official emission test done by my local car club. There is no emission restriction on my car in my state. I have the original emission test, done when I first purchased the car three years ago (voluntary test, none mandated) and my car has no catalytic converter/s so the possibility of any compensation via feedback from the oxygen sensor through to the mixture control can be ruled out.

I repaired a glitch in the unit I currently have, a modified neon light generator, but it caused the voltage to drop slightly and it was just on the critical level for effective function before. The unit that I have designed myself is far superior and adjustable (on the test bench) and will be a much better model for testing. I await for parts to arrive from the USA :)

Robert
06-03-2008 06:49 AM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Ozone gas generator
That amazing1 web site is the main one I was looking for, couldn't remember it to save my life. The ozone gas we are generating has an extremely short lifespan and is not the same as the "ozone layer" in the sky. When it goes through combustion it returns to O2. I agree that an emission test would be a good idea. Admittedly I could be wrong but I don't think so. I work for a company that uses ozone on a daily basis and have a chemical engineer in my office, this is were I am getting my information.

As I have said previously, I've heard reports of people having success using ozone but I have not seen any gains. My dual generator setup produces ~200 mg/hr of ozone gas which I'm pretty confident is higher than most DIY units but I can't say for sure how it compares to what you've built. I certainly believe it's worth more testing.

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06-03-2008 07:42 AM
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RKS Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Ozone gas generator
qsiguy Wrote:That amazing1 web site is the main one I was looking for, couldn't remember it to save my life. The ozone gas we are generating has an extremely short lifespan and is not the same as the "ozone layer" in the sky. When it goes through combustion it returns to O2. I agree that an emission test would be a good idea. Admittedly I could be wrong but I don't think so. I work for a company that uses ozone on a daily basis and have a chemical engineer in my office, this is were I am getting my information.

As I have said previously, I've heard reports of people having success using ozone but I have not seen any gains. My dual generator setup produces ~200 mg/hr of ozone gas which I'm pretty confident is higher than most DIY units but I can't say for sure how it compares to what you've built. I certainly believe it's worth more testing.

I used the 'Ozone 100' as a reference machine and my generator appeared to generate more ozone judging by the glow and the smell. The Ozone 100 is said to produce 500mg/hr. The new unit will have two discharge tubes and should produce around 1,000mg/hr, but I have no way of testing this.

Also worth considering - I have the discharge tubes placed in the air box so there is as short as possible path from the ozone generation to its utilisation, though it still has to pass through the air filter. I will try placing one on the other side of the air filter when I have sufficient test equipment installed so that I can do an immediate A-B comparison.

The discharge tubes have to have a constant air flow as they will heat up otherwise - in open air they are too hot to touch after a few minutes.

Robert
06-04-2008 01:25 AM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Ozone gas generator
Yes, it is difficult to measure without specialized equipment. 1000 mg/hr is pretty good. Maybe I need to up the volume and see if that makes any difference. The amount of ozone I could pump into my engine is pretty much unlimited. We have machines that will produce ozone rated in lbs per day, even machines larger than my truck that will produce 100's of pounds of ozone per day. It's possible if I get too much ozone the truck, or engine at least, won't be there after a day Hmm What size motor are you using yours in? Seriously though, at ozone levels where you are at and up, you have a high risk of oxidizing plastic and rubber components in your engine/intake system, keep an eye on plastic and rubber parts around the generator.

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(This post was last modified: 06-04-2008 10:55 AM by qsiguy.)
06-04-2008 10:53 AM
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RKS Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Ozone gas generator
5.6ltr engine. The current generator is only a fraction of that - one discharge tube at 4kV instead of two tubes at 7kV. There is pretty well only an air filter between the generator and the intake manifold.

If you have large generators then I'd try introducing ozone and monitoring pollution control to see if it changes the fuel mixture in response to the ozone. If it leans the mixture then you have a measured fuel saving, if the engine revs faster for the same throttle position then that is also an indication or more efficient fuel utilisation.

You may be able to find the level of ozone required to increase revs or lean the mixture. This would give us a baseline to work from. If it is ridiculously high levels then we can conclude that ozone is a non-starter for practical fuel saving applications. If a measurable effect occurs at around the 100~500mg level then there may be hope.

Of course that is not the only measure - the engine under load is much better measure but for any truly scientific testing one needs a rolling road so various loads can be tested with no ozone and then with progressively more, again looking for a leaner mixture or less throttle for the same engine speed.

This is purely a hobby for me - at $1,200 year in fuel costs and a promise of 10% saving, it would take a decade just to recoup my recent and planned investment in ozone and test equipment. I could save more than that just by driving like an old woman.

Robert
06-05-2008 01:44 AM
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Ryanrpm Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Ozone gas generator
I'm also looking at adding an ozone generator to my truck. Have you guys gotten any more gains or results from your experiments?

How about injecting ozone into the EVAP vacuum line at the throttle body?

Purchased! The AquaThrustPlus. Installed on my engine: Tundra 4.7L

[Image: f_emp3hbpw24tm_bcf4d7d.jpg] [Image: f_d32qa8uwm_b9baaff.jpg]

My next mods: Envalve, Vapor Assist.
09-01-2009 10:02 PM
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qsiguy Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Ozone gas generator
Haven't done any more experimentation with the ozone for a while. I had mine injecting in through a vacuum port in the throttle body and that's the only way to do it with my setup. In order to push it in to the intake you would have to have pressure pushing it through if you didn't have the vacuum to pull it in.

Our larger scale ozone generators use oxygen as feed gas so if I do it again I will probably try to come up with a small scale oxygen concentrator to send pressurized oxygen through it. This will make more ozone as well as increase the oxygen in the intake. Will definitely need the EFIE for that job as you'll have way more O2 in the combustion.

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09-03-2009 09:41 PM
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Ryanrpm Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Ozone gas generator
Been about 9 months since the last update......has anyone done any more experimenting with ozone or tried different units/configurations?

This mod is still on my to-do-list.

Purchased! The AquaThrustPlus. Installed on my engine: Tundra 4.7L

[Image: f_emp3hbpw24tm_bcf4d7d.jpg] [Image: f_d32qa8uwm_b9baaff.jpg]

My next mods: Envalve, Vapor Assist.
07-16-2010 10:16 PM
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