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Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
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mariusmol Offline
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Post: #1
Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
I open that question, at suggestion of one of your members.
I work now at a emulator of PAS in conjunction with HHO aditivation.
Basic idea is to "lean' the pedal signal instead of trick the other interconnected sensors in order to get more savings with HHO.

The original signal is intercepted, used as it is for HHO generator PWM and will provide a minimum HHO at idle that will not disturb the O2 sensor(s).
Once push the pedal the inceased signal will provide more gas based on PWM variation..

Same signal is then altered -my electronics allow negative or positive values - the sent to ECU.
As safety feature is the relation of new values and time recorded when push the pedal from idle value to full throttle. Two baseline records are inputed; slow,normal acceleration and fast kick.
If that time is faster than a certain value - choose between the two base lines - the tuning is ignored and original values are sent to ECU.

In that way the engine will work as normal but the additional torque achieved due HHO presence will be converted into savings.
A "soft rigth foot" in conjuction with HHO.
Low RPM will do same work at better torque and lean pedal will help driver to drive a normal in ergonomic terms but get low RPM's, more savings...

That could be applicable for Otto, Diesel no matter of brand or engine model...the PAS is almost the same= a 0-5 volts variable resistor.

A more advanced option is a closed loop with the O2 sensor and let that sensor make the tuning.

I was advised to ask here if is a viable solution.
So I invite any one to add a comment - especially if is a specialist in that field.
11-29-2010 08:43 PM
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mike Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
It can be made to work fine for adjustment of the PWM to limit HHO production when the vehicle is not under load. Although I would also coordinate it with the MAP sensor if possible.

However, it will not work in place of an EFIE. The problem is not the pedal position. A person will learn to give less pedal. The problem is the air/fuel ratio. That is determined by the sensors, and the that's why an oxygen sensor adjustment is needed. Air/fuel ratio is only affected by the pedal during acceleration. The engine allows the mixture to go richer as more power is needed. But the majority of the time, the air/fuel ratio is determined by the oxygen sensors (and other sensors) in closed loop operation, and doesn't have anything to do with pedal position.

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11-30-2010 01:10 AM
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mariusmol Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
[quote='mike' pid='32998' dateline='1291108204']

Thanks for reply.
You said that will work as HHO gas controller due PWM load adjustment.
Let forget the other sensors for a while.
Is absolutely true what you said and is also true that fuel consumption can be reduced - the differences are surprisingly large - with in a "eco" driving manner: optimal acceleration, override gear ....

So let forget the EFIE's as principle and take a better look at what I proposed.

If the HHO gas volume will be adjusted for ECU's close loop in that manner to not modify the Lambda = 1 readings.

I had almost 1 LPM of HHO gas feed to a Renault Megane Euro 2 1.6 Liter engine and O2 sensor readings were OK, the injectors lesser the gasoline with only 8-10% and on exhaust most of readings get close to Euro 3 value or exceed it, and more water was collected. Test was done in LPG well equipped workshop, operation performed by a reputed LPG specialist.

There is a minimal HHO gas volume for any any engine where O2 sensor will not "see" any changes.
In close loop regimes the engine will stay on Lambda = 1 due the PWM settings.
More, a closed loop PWM - O2 sensor may automatize the settings, as I said.
ECU , in open loop function will ignore the O2 readings but PAS will take the lead and here I come :
No need same PAS angle, less RPM, less fuel in presence of more HHO gas and the improved torque will achieve same mechanical work.

But the pedal become very "sharp" and - in theory - this should be learned by the drivers.
In reality many of us never learn that because driving will become a stress in attempt to use only the first few angular range of the pedal.. from ergonomic point of view.
And here come the EFIE's and MAF / MAP etc. to lean the mixture...OK but not so easy..you know the challenges ...

A multitude of after market devices operating on that principle are available - and even without HHO some get good savings ... in a simple, trouble free and easy to install to almost ANY engine way.
It works on Otto or Diesel as well, OBD I or CAN...

Some are just a compressed air cushion under the pedal, some are sophisticated electronic devices...
Nissan developed the Eco Pedal for that purpose ....

What about that?
11-30-2010 05:12 AM
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mike Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
Sounds good. Try it and see what kind of mileage results you get. I'm willing to believe in it.

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11-30-2010 11:15 AM
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mariusmol Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
@Mike
Thank you ! Your personal opinion is the one that count for the guy who sent me here ...

Please tell me that your last posted opinion is for real and not only just your polite way to avoid arguing with me.
You know ... I may be the annoying one to keep posting arguments for a lost cause...Smile

The rest of modules - parts of my whole HHO project - are also different and, disclosed to well experimented builders received some sarcastic opinions or just patronized approvals....














m
11-30-2010 02:11 PM
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
Am I right in saying that as you press the throttle this will let in more air - this is mechanical. The Throttle position going to the ECU is used in conjunction with the MAF to figure our how much fuel to add. So Mike is correct that you need to work with the MAF as well

I am currently making a PWM so I can easily hook this up to throttle position or MAF reading but from my observation the addition of HHO does not seem to change the AFR reading so I am still not sure why an efie is needed, unless of course it used just to back off the amount of fuel to take advantage of the extra power from the Hydrogen ?
11-30-2010 03:00 PM
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mariusmol Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
@jbalat
well, is that why a open this thread. to find out from experts if proposed method works, at least in theory.
If pedal is resting the throttle is closed, minimum air volume pass to engine.
MAF measure that air volume - simply said, but some engines have IAT sensor - and ECU compute the imposted amount of gasoline for that air.
Here we should not forget the other sensors that count in that computation : coolant fluid temerature, RPM..

I had same observation like yours: at least for certain HHO volume the AFR will not be altered and the O2 sensor readings will not "disturbed" the ECU at all.

And I was wonder why to alter that O2 values when is obviously that fuel consumption is minimal there, the engine works fine in Lambda =1 condition?
The extra and costly consumption come when push the pedal!
That is necessarily to get more more power since idle torque is not enough to do the job.
The PAS will order all the "circus" that follow: throttle to open, air to enter, to be measured by MAF/MAP/IAT, ECU to start computing how much fuel is required, command the injectors then O2 is the one who will close the loop to adjust this computation and so on...
But close loop is used only for idle - and at certain engine temperature - and in the certain range of engine load and RPM.
Acceleration regimes are controlled by PAS and not corrected by O2 sensor.
Mostly even the right torque is achieved to execute the mechanical work desired the pedal will stay pushed ...we are the ones who need to be trained how to use it!
And that's the most difficult task!

In presence of HHO the torque is increased.
The air/HHO ratio is getting leaner with the RPM due limits in HHO volume produced.
Most HHO units have maximum gas production from idle to ...idle!Sad

PWM on certain HHO device may use one variable signal to "align" gas production to air flow - at least up to a certain point.
But why to use MAF/MAP sensors since those are only observers , the air flow cause is the throttle opening ordered by PAS.
Other throttles openings ordered by other sensors in some condition are the ECU "internal affair" and not need to 'mess" with!
If we alter the MAS/MAP and even O2 values to get a lean mixture some ECU's will have at least the TPS out of the algorithm and may consider that as failure of sensors.
PAS is the only sensor that affect the fuel consumption but is accepted by ECU to provide ( almost) any value at any given time, 0-5 volts analog signal , up and down.
PAS is the key!

A soft pedal is a good fuel saver and desired mechanical work - speed, traction power is not only a matter of power achieved by high RPM but of torque and gears as well.
Using HHO will increase that torque - at least on limited air flow range - and my method may work.
Is more convenient and almost universal from my point of view.
11-30-2010 03:54 PM
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mike Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
(11-30-2010 02:11 PM)mariusmol Wrote:  @Mike
Thank you ! Your personal opinion is the one that count for the guy who sent me here ...

Please tell me that your last posted opinion is for real and not only just your polite way to avoid arguing with me.
You know ... I may be the annoying one to keep posting arguments for a lost cause...Smile

I don't do that. Your information about other methods of reducing pedal action show that there is some workability to reducing fuel flow. I think a test is in order, with before and after mileage results. Then we'll know if it works.

However, you will find, that with an HHO system, you will still need the EFIE. The computer will still adjust fuel flow and air/fuel ratio at most cruise conditions using the oxygen sensor information.

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12-01-2010 01:27 AM
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mariusmol Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
[quote='mike' pid='33007' dateline='1291195648']

well thank you again.
I should run a test as you said!
But since the HHO volume will not be so high to match the increasing air volume that enter once the throttle go beyond idle position I guess that once the idle is free of trouble then cruise conditions are fulfilled.
12-01-2010 07:37 AM
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mariusmol Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Pedal Acceleration Sensor and fuel savings
@Mike
I'm back again.
I made a nice HHO generator and revised the Fuel-Saver website for more details about engine's sensors ...
Surprising news - for me - was the information was the statement :
"So adding a fraction of 1 LPM to 2000 LPM will have no effect on the sensor's signal. However, the hydrogen will cause the same petroleum fuel to now turn the engine 35% more times. This causes the oxygen from the intake to increase by 35%, from 2000 LPM to 2700 LPM. This is what is causing the problem."
HHO additivation may increase the RMP indeed - I've seen a one cylinder motorcycle engine revving faster once the "sniffed" some HHO gas and that mean more air aspired indeed..
But 35% on V8 engine never!
That HHO volume increase the torque but not the RMP - in significant value.
Have more details on that theory?
05-28-2012 03:36 AM
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