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Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
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DodgeViper Offline
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Post: #1
Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
First and foremost the system is NOT OPERATIONAL and this may be the problem.

Here’s the deal. I am having a problem with the water in the bubbler siphoning back to the cell block then into the reservoir, then overflowing the reservoir where water is leaking from the breather hole in the cap. In the drawing below you can see how I have the reservoir, bubbler, and cell block plumb. Water is being siphoned back up the dip tube in the bubbler.

As stated earlier the system is not producing any gas. I am only testing for leaks. The hose to the intake is open and I believe this is why the system siphoning the water. When I plug the intake hose no water is being siphoned. I am being told that once gas is being made the siphoning will disappear. My concern is when I shut the system off and the siphoning begins again. I DO NOT want water and KOH running out of the breather hole.

My idea is to place a high flow check valve on the end of the dip tube this eliminating the siphon effect, but what effect will this have on the check valve being exposed to the WATER / KOH? The check valve will be submerged in KOH 100% of the time. Another idea would be to place the high flow check valve after the bubbler going to the intake this eliminating the check valve being exposed to the KOH.

Would like some input… Thanks in advance…

[Image: Image1.png]

[Image: Hydrogen%20Powered.jpg]
2002 Dodge Quad Cab 4x4 Ram
4.7L EFI
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2008 04:48 PM by DodgeViper.)
12-22-2008 04:41 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
Ah, my friend, sometimes things are so easy to overthink.
Check valve: One threaded PVC 1/2" NPT coupling, two barbed fittings, one rubber washer and one of your kid's marbles.
Voila! One check valve and one irritated rugrat.
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2008 05:13 PM by Gary.)
12-22-2008 05:11 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
Gary Wrote:Ah, my friend, sometimes things are so easy to overthink.
Check valve: One threaded PVC 1/2" NPT coupling, two barbed fittings, one rubber washer and one of your kid's marbles.
Voila! One check valve and one irritated rugrat.
Elegance at its finest. Simple yet sure!
12-22-2008 05:38 PM
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benny Offline
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RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
thomasbala Wrote:
Gary Wrote:Ah, my friend, sometimes things are so easy to overthink.
Check valve: One threaded PVC 1/2" NPT coupling, two barbed fittings, one rubber washer and one of your kid's marbles.
Voila! One check valve and one irritated rugrat.
Elegance at its finest. Simple yet sure!

Variation on a theme. Submerged generator. No air inlet. Reservoir can also double as a preliminary bubbler. Fluid trap optional, but recommended.
Non return valve, if fitted, goes between the fluid trap and bubbler, working in dry(?) HHO. Generator is self aspirating. More height between the generator and reservoir helps rate of flow of electrolyte through the generator. Output from generator is mixture of electrolyte and HHO gas bubbles.
Bottom of reservoir also acts as a trap/settling area for any crap in the electrolyte. Sufficient gap required at top of reservoir to allow gas/fluid separation.
12-22-2008 06:23 PM
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DodgeViper Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
benny Wrote:
thomasbala Wrote:
Gary Wrote:Ah, my friend, sometimes things are so easy to overthink.
Check valve: One threaded PVC 1/2" NPT coupling, two barbed fittings, one rubber washer and one of your kid's marbles.
Voila! One check valve and one irritated rugrat.
Elegance at its finest. Simple yet sure!

Variation on a theme. Submerged generator. No air inlet. Reservoir can also double as a preliminary bubbler. Fluid trap optional, but recommended.

The problem with the fluid trap is at some point your going to need to drain it or put a return line back to the reservior...

[Image: Hydrogen%20Powered.jpg]
2002 Dodge Quad Cab 4x4 Ram
4.7L EFI
12-22-2008 08:44 PM
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mrbillr Offline
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RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
No reason to make it any more complicated than you need to. The water level will equalize in the bubbler the same level as the reservoir. Just set the bubbler slightly higher than the reservoir so you have more vapor area on top than you do in the reservoir. No check valves or anything are needed.

[Image: Image2.PNG]

MrBill
2008 f250 XLT 6.4 diesel 2x4 automatic extended cab
(This post was last modified: 12-22-2008 10:04 PM by mrbillr.)
12-22-2008 10:02 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
mrbillr Wrote:No reason to make it any more complicated than you need to. The water level will equalize in the bubbler the same level as the reservoir. Just set the bubbler slightly higher than the reservoir so you have more vapor area on top than you do in the reservoir. No check valves or anything are needed.

[Image: Image2.PNG]
Please correct me, but does not the law of gravity require the level of fluid to equal the level of the fluid in the cell?
12-22-2008 10:29 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
Sorry Mr. Bill, but your bubbler just became a BOMB! You should ALWAYS have a little gas as possible in the bubbler if you expect it to survive a pop.
I know this firsthand and recently. The ringing in my ears finally went away.

Dodge: the beauty of the marble is that when tilted, it rolls to the side of the washer, and allows for draining. Either this or you take off the hose below and shove a rod up there to lift the ball. Providing you don't have a cut on your hand anywhere...NaOH stings a bit.

A hole could be drilled into the fluid trap and a nylon plug put in for draining. My car uses a check valve before the bubbler to keep the fluid from running under the car and plugging the hose from the trunk. It's a pain to drain because of it's location, but I manage to do it blind.


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(This post was last modified: 12-23-2008 11:59 AM by Gary.)
12-23-2008 05:32 AM
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benny Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Problem With Water Siphoning Back To Cell & Reservoi
DodgeViper Wrote:The problem with the fluid trap is at some point your going to need to drain it or put a return line back to the reservior...

Problem with fitting a return pipe to a fluid trap is that the fluid trap then needs to be higher than your reservoir. Without the return pipe you suggest, the fluid trap can be the lowest part of the system, allowing any fluid in piping etc to dump into the fluid trap.
Since there should, hopefully, be very little fluid fluid spillover to the trap, I would go with the drain option.

Bear in mind that the drawing I posted was not intended as the be-all or end-all of design criteria. Just a 'black box drawing' as an alternative method of system installation. Also not shown is that, for those who prefer the 'add-air' option, an air bleeder can be added to the bubbler, adjustable with non-return valve incorporated.

Reservoir design started life as wet cell, Long Tall Sally, design which was based on, but one step up from, Smacks wet cell without the wrapping. Modified to become reservoir with additional piping added.
Now acts as combined reservoir, crap trap (settling out during off periods), and preliminary bubbler 'all-in-one'
I added an internal funnel, fitted to suit reservoir diameter, small end down, below the return pipe (lower pipe), from the generator which also helps trap any crud beneath same. Doesn't get stirred up when generator is brought on line.
Helps keep electrolyte clean. Eventually I will find more suitable SS grade of plates and hopefully won't need this complex a reservoir arrangement..

For the present, works for me for testing etc,.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2008 10:39 AM by benny.)
12-23-2008 10:38 AM
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