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Problems with Dutchman systems
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Paulusgnome Offline
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Post: #1
Problems with Dutchman systems
I spotted this thread on another forum. The poster has spent a lot of time and money with Dutchman's authorised installers, including a once-a-week visit for several months so the system could be 'tuned', and so far he has seen no gains in fuel mileage at all, and has finally got them to admit defeat and give him a refund.
Does anyone here have any experiences with the Dutchman system? Can anyone suggest where they went wrong with this installation?
12-15-2008 11:42 AM
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wpvk818 Offline
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RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
Sounds to me like the tuner was incompetant. If the ECU is throwing codes the tuning parameters were likely way out of whack. I have no direct experience with the HAFC kit but I replicated almost every aspect of it (including the tuning taught by m. holler) with great success in my car.
12-15-2008 07:59 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
Paulusgnome Wrote:I spotted this thread on another forum. The poster has spent a lot of time and money with Dutchman's authorised installers, including a once-a-week visit for several months so the system could be 'tuned', and so far he has seen no gains in fuel mileage at all, and has finally got them to admit defeat and give him a refund.
Does anyone here have any experiences with the Dutchman system? Can anyone suggest where they went wrong with this installation?
They went wrong as soon as they saw the vehicle was a Toyota. HHO works with O2 sensors using an EFIE. HHO does not work on cars with A/F sensors, like Toyotas. An EFIE doesn't work on A/F sensors; thus when you add HHO the A/F sensor sends a lean signal to the ECU which increases the pulse width to the injectors causing more gas to be injected and poor gas mileage. Further it sounds like he had Curly, Larry and Moe working on his Corolla.
12-15-2008 09:34 PM
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gtkco Offline
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RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
Yep, you got AFR sensors, don't waste your time. I know only one success using O2 extenders. That's it.
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2008 05:49 AM by gtkco.)
12-16-2008 05:49 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
'06 Toyota? Definitely a wide band AFR sensor.

Extenders didn't help my '05 Toyota.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
12-16-2008 08:13 PM
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Paulusgnome Offline
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RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
I see that Dennis Lee's Dutchman Systems is getting clobbered by the FTC.
While this doesn't necessarily mean that what they are selling is bogus, it will force them to either pee or get off the pot as far as providing some hard evidence that their system really does deliver the gas mileage improvements that they claim.
It will be most interesting to see what happens.
02-12-2009 07:50 PM
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bylota Offline
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RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
(02-12-2009 07:50 PM)Paulusgnome Wrote:  I see that Dennis Lee's Dutchman Systems is getting clobbered by the FTC.
While this doesn't necessarily mean that what they are selling is bogus, it will force them to either pee or get off the pot as far as providing some hard evidence that their system really does deliver the gas mileage improvements that they claim.
It will be most interesting to see what happens.

I would not say 'clobbered', just attacked. Here is the outcome:

Dennis Lee and Dutchman Win Round Against FTC

In a major victory for the science of hydrogen-boost related systems, Dennis Lee and Dutchman Enterprises were exonerated after a month of being shut down by an FTC temporary restraining order for their super-mileage claims.

by Sterling D. Allan
Pure Energy Systems News
Copyright © 2009


Dennis Lee
The Hydro Assist Fuel Cell kit combines three fuel saving technologies along with a sophisticated computerized emission system optimizer. It includes 1) an electrolysis unit for on-board hydrogen injection; 2) a vaporizer/ionizer using magnets; and 3) additives that include acetone and xylene.
The Hydro Assist Fuel Cell kit combines three fuel saving technologies along with a sophisticated computerized emission system optimizer. It includes 1) an electrolysis unit for on-board hydrogen injection; 2) a vaporizer/ionizer using magnets; and 3) additives that include acetone and xylene.

After a month of having their assets and website frozen by a US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) injunction, Dennis Lee and Dutchman Enterprises were exonerated Wednesday by NJ Federal Judge, Michael Shipp who ruled in favor of Lee and Dutchman, who have been selling a "Hydrogen Assist Fuel Cell" (HAFC) that they "guarantee" to improve mileage by at least 50%. Lee is free of all encumbrances.

In a thirteen page statement meticulously explaining his reasons, the judge apparently pointed out that the FTC's charge was inadequate, and that the expert witness opinion by FTC's physicist, Dr. Halperin, was trumped by the internal combustion expert witness who spoke in defense of Dutchman. The physicist who the FTC produced as a key witness, was not an expert in internal combustion engines, and had given his opinion that the claims being made by Lee's group were "impossible" to achieve. The judge pointed out that Halperin never had gotten a HAFC kit, never put it together, never tested it, never ran data. The defense, on the other hand, had produced a great deal of evidence in support of their claim, with an expert witness who specializes in internal combustion engines.

The overwhelming number of positive testimonies, the "Orange Test" before-and-after documentation and the ironclad affidavit swayed the judge to quickly decide that Dutchman Enterprises was indeed being unjustly railroaded. Kurt Anaheim, a dealer of the HAFC kit, says that they have seen "hundreds if not thousands of gasoline powered cars and trucks getting 50% or more mileage gain". (Ref.)

Dr. Halperin admitted to Dutchman's attorney that he does not have a Ph.D. in engine technology, and acknowledged that his expertise and his report was based on his background in Cryogenics. In continued cross examination, the attorney asked Halperin other questions revealing that Halperin knew very little about how an internal combustion engine worked, and in particular had no knowledge of the very short period of time there is to get energy out of the fuel while it's burning in the piston chamber during the power stroke of the engine, or that this is the only time the burn puts any power to the wheels. (Ref.)

Regarding the "expert" testimony that such mileage improvements were "impossible," one of the points that Lee's defense argued to the judge was something to the effect: "Do you think the President of the United States and his advisors don't know what they're talking about when they call for an increase in the mileage of the nation's vehicles, expecting at least a 10 mpg improvement?"

Anaheim says: "Our Hydro Assist Fuel Cell technology prepares and volatizes the fuel prior to burning so that it burns more completely during that short duration of the power stroke, producing more power, which we are able to convert to economy, while reducing pollution." (Ref.)

In a conference call last night with his extensive network, Lee took three hours to describe the situation: what led up to it, how it unfolded, the ramifications for himself and the company, then taking questions from his listeners.

"We tore him up on the stand," he said, regarding the "expert" physicist witness.

This is only the second time in New Jersey's history that the FTC has lost a case. What makes this more astonishing is the extent to which they tied Lee and Dutchman's hands behind their backs, even going so far as freezing Lee's personal bank account. In the process of interviewing lawyers for his defense, Lee recounted how one after another would cower in fear, telling him there is no way he could win against the FTC -- that the FTC always gets their way, even if they're wrong. "All you had to do was say 'FTC', and lawyers were shaking in their boots."

Lee, who has been in court twelve times now, but who has never had a trial by jury, remarked that finally he had experienced justice being served, not miscarried.

Since at least the early 1990s, Lee has been having one run-in after another with government agencies who accuse him of some kind of fraud, yet who have never proven the same in a court of law. He views these actions as being inspired by the good ol' boy's club, in bed with big oil and the auto makers to suppress the emergence of technologies that move us toward kicking our addiction to oil. So with this case victory, he said, "It's always nice to win against the DC Mafia".

Lee expects that the FTC will try to appeal this, to save face; and he said he is prepared to go the distance. He told those on the call: "You and I should be unrelenting. The truth for me is worth dying for. There is nothing they can threaten me with that will cause me to bend my knee to injustice."

At the same time, he said he is prepared to offer the FTC a graceful way to back out, admitting that they had made a mistake -- in which case Lee would stand down. "The smartest thing they could do is say, 'We made a mistake, we got a guy..., he screwed up, we're going to back down."

But if they persist, he is prepared to file a class action suit on behalf of all his dealers and himself who have been seriously financially impaired by the temporary injunction, as well as maligned.

Dutchmann took a major hit in the process, losing $750,000 USD in an inventory fire sale. They now have nothing. However, that will not keep the dealers from being able to move forward, due to the way the company was set up, thanks to a sister company that is able to keep things rolling.

Lee is willing to forgive the $750k loss if the FTC will admit its mistake and go away so they can get on with their business. "Dutchman isn't in this for the money. It won't go after the money if we can just get on with life." He said he actually looks forward to getting out among the car dealerships and mechanic training classes to help promote the technology on the ground.

Lee emphasized the many inconveniences caused by the month-long injunction, with employees not being paid, dealers almost losing their livelihood, suppliers not being paid, manufacturers not being paid -- and everyone being treated with suspicion as if they were part of some scam. "We have a strong case for slander ... and possibly malfeasance." Lee reported that in the process of this action, agents had taken proprietary documents not related to this case.

"They accuse us of misrepresentation, yet they themselves are guilty of misrepresentation."

Assets were frozen and all sales had to be stopped, and the company was virtually decimated. Yesterday, with the funds being unfrozen, Lee immediately paid his employees, and sales are commencing. The PICC website was taken down, but it will be back up today, paradoxically Friday the 13th, with the details of this judgment.

There are around 100 manufactures who have "plenty" of HAFC kits for distribution. The "Genesis Project", which will be carrying the torch, is owned by the dealers.
(12-15-2008 07:59 PM)wpvk818 Wrote:  Sounds to me like the tuner was incompetant. If the ECU is throwing codes the tuning parameters were likely way out of whack. I have no direct experience with the HAFC kit but I replicated almost every aspect of it (including the tuning taught by m. holler) with great success in my car.

Hi wpv. Are you saying you built your own HAFC from parts? If so, could you share the source for your plans, and a little more info on what you mean by "great success"? For example, your mileage gains, and how long you have been using the system. I read that one of the problems with the HAFC is that it starts out showing excellent gains, but after a week or so the gains disappear.
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2009 03:30 PM by bylota.)
02-14-2009 03:25 PM
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Paulusgnome Offline
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RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
Wow, I said it would be interesting, and so it is!
One would imagine that the FTC will not just back off from here, more likely they will dig a lot deeper and consult some other, better qualified experts.
There is clearly a lot of play in this yet.
02-14-2009 04:43 PM
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bylota Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Problems with Dutchman systems
I would think that if they were really trying to shut down Dutchman, the FTC would find people who had problems with the system. That would be much more effective than any expert testimony. Experts would testify to hypothesis and conjecture about whether the theory would work. Actual users would tell them in fact whether the system worked and if customers were getiing ripped off. The FTC did not produce anyone who had trouble with the HAFC, yet they seem to be readily available on the internet. I find this strange.
02-15-2009 08:00 AM
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