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Proof that resonance exists ?
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jbalat Offline
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Post: #1
Proof that resonance exists ?
Besides the rumours around the HHO community and some posts from watkykjy1 there is little evidence around that resonance after Stan Mayer has been achieved.

I wanted to start this thread to collate any existing and new data that can prove the resonance/overunity effect.

**** Can I humbly ask that if thomasbela, Fang and The Cell choose to participate that there is no abuse, slander, and personal attacks. I also ask that there is no technical attacks on anyone without absolute proof and not just opinion. We have had too much of that already and I dont really blame Mike for closing down the other thread. ***

So lets keep this technical.. Please post links to photos, videos, anything that can help to prove this one way or another etc...
01-18-2010 02:43 AM
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benny Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
(01-18-2010 02:43 AM)jbalat Wrote:  Besides the rumours around the HHO community and some posts from watkykjy1 there is little evidence around that resonance after Stan Mayer has been achieved.

I wanted to start this thread to collate any existing and new data that can prove the resonance/overunity effect.

**** Can I humbly ask that if thomasbela, Fang and The Cell choose to participate that there is no abuse, slander, and personal attacks. I also ask that there is no technical attacks on anyone without absolute proof and not just opinion. We have had too much of that already and I dont really blame Mike for closing down the other thread. ***

So lets keep this technical.. Please post links to photos, videos, anything that can help to prove this one way or another etc...

Resonance in electrical circuits.
The following link gives a brief explanation of resonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

Note in particular the parallel resonance circuit, or tank circuit. This circuit can generate very high localised current flow between a capacitor (in your case your HHO cell) and an inductor, maintained by a comparitively low input driving current, at the resonant frequency of the circuit.

Most circuits, such as Stan Meyers circuit appear to use series resonance which tend to use some form of electronics control to produce step voltage increase, producing much higher voltages than the applied voltage

If current flow is what causes electrolysis then the tank circuit would seem to be the most applicable to electrolysis.

On the other hand, as some propose, the main requirement is higher voltage, then series resonance would be the way to go.

So resonance is possible.

Main problem in obtaining resonance with hydroxy generation equipment is that your cell will vary in capacitance value with temperature, electrolyte strength, and actual cell design, so calculating and maintaining resonance can be difficult.
There have been some designs, some complex, some relatively simple, which have been placed on the web for circuits which, in one way or another will do this.

Seek and ye shall find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru8YQ6HUwbU

Video on youtube, using parallel resonant circuit, self-calibrating for resonance.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2010 06:20 AM by benny.)
01-18-2010 06:16 AM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
First I think resonance as pertaining to HHO production should be defined a bit: I believe we are talking about a frequency that creates an exponential rise in production - preferably massive.
Not only are there problems with capacitance changes from external variables like temperature and voltages, but splashing of the electrolyte by movement.
Gabe, sponsor of HHO-info came up with the theory that there is a circuit completed by way of the electrolyte in the hoses to the bubbler/reservoir in a drycell unit. Several of us are presently working to eliminate this problem in the search for more consistent values for the use of resonance. http://hhoinfo.ning.com/forum/topics/dri...-interrupt
01-18-2010 04:07 PM
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benny Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
(01-18-2010 04:07 PM)Gary Wrote:  First I think resonance as pertaining to HHO production should be defined a bit: I believe we are talking about a frequency that creates an exponential rise in production - preferably massive.
Not only are there problems with capacitance changes from external variables like temperature and voltages, but splashing of the electrolyte by movement.
Gabe, sponsor of HHO-info came up with the theory that there is a circuit completed by way of the electrolyte in the hoses to the bubbler/reservoir in a drycell unit. Several of us are presently working to eliminate this problem in the search for more consistent values for the use of resonance. http://hhoinfo.ning.com/forum/topics/dri...-interrupt

Hi Gary.

One of the main causes for variance in the capacitance value of a unit, and thus the resonant frequency is the actual volume of gas bubbles created and held in suspension in the unit. Possibly this is one reason why those who use a pump to move fluid through the cell claim to get better results than those using self aspirated units. Keeps the variance to a minimum by removing the bubbles as soon as they are formed leaving a whole lot less of same in suspension in the unit.

Regarding electrical circuit through external piping. This would be an electrical connection which would effectively look like a resistor in parallel with the cell. That said, the unit itself already acts as a capacitor with a low(ish) value resistor in parallel, the resistance of which will vary with electrolyte strength. Depending on length of hoses, I suspect the resistance along the hoses would be quite high when compared to the unit through resistance. Coupled with that, the output hose will have or should hopefully have, a high concentration of gas bubbles suspended in any electrolyte passing through this hose making the resistance value along the hoses even higher.
I suspect that the electrical resistance of the fluid through the hoses will play only a very small part in overall resistance value.

Note that RC circuits also have a resonant frequency which would in part explain why some can get a unit to show resonance characteristics without additional capacitance or inductance.

RC = resistance/Capacitance

As an aside, maybe the header of this thread should read "Proof that resonance works"

Out of curiosity, I might just look out a dip meter, used to tune antennae, I have buried in a box somewhere, and see if I can use same to determing the resonant frequency of a particular unit. Won't be identical to other units, since this will vary with unit design, and probably won't produce a sharp dip at resonance, but might be a guideline base figure for setting up PWM.
(This post was last modified: 01-18-2010 05:01 PM by benny.)
01-18-2010 04:44 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
Interesting concept on the bubbles - makes sense too. Thus far, I've not heard of any exponential gains in a unit, so I have to assume that it hasn't (a resonant frequency) been found yet. Unless the dune buggy did it.
Do you think the HAM equipment will divine high enough frequencies to be of any use? I thought that Myers had pegged it up in the ...heck, I forget, 300,000kz range?
01-18-2010 08:59 PM
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benny Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
(01-18-2010 08:59 PM)Gary Wrote:  Interesting concept on the bubbles - makes sense too. Thus far, I've not heard of any exponential gains in a unit, so I have to assume that it hasn't (a resonant frequency) been found yet. Unless the dune buggy did it.
Do you think the HAM equipment will divine high enough frequencies to be of any use? I thought that Myers had pegged it up in the ...heck, I forget, 300,000kz range?

Some dip meters work with frequencies up to 250MHz.

Meyers used frequencies in the tens of KHz. Water as vapour is quoted as having a resonant frequency of around 22GHz, with liquid water having no apparent resonant frequency.

Note that both Meyer, and Dave Lawton who to a point replicated Meyers design, used concentric tubes which appear to gave been matched for mechanical resonance using the ding procedure. Hang from thread and 'ding' with a striker. Match the tones produced by the 'ding' and you match the tubes resonant frequencies. Longer inner tubes and slotted outer tubes.

I'm personally beginning to wonder if this is the 'resonance' they have been, and we should be, aiming for, so that the applied voltage at that precise frequency will cause the pipes to resonate mechanically. Whether this mechanical resonance, or ringing, would be an aid to electrolysis or not I leave to the more knowlegable amongst us. Certainly would help dislodge the bubbles in the tube spaces quickly.
If mechanical resonance is what is required, how then do you tune a plate cell for mechanical resonance?

So far, all I personally have achieved with a plate cell and PWM is reasonably accurate control of current flow which in itself is a plus.

As far as electrical resonance is concerned, depending on additional components used, and depending on overall construction, it is possible to induce very high localized current twixt unit and an external inductor, with minimal input power required, once the unit is in a resonant state, to maintain this oscillating 'internal' current. That is how a tank or parallel circuit would perform.

Series electrical resonance I mentioned in previous pst.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2010 01:56 PM by benny.)
01-19-2010 01:53 PM
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jbalat Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
Guys just having a read of your posts and it made me have a bit of a think.

Meyers cylindrical tube cell showed evidence that the tubes themselves were tuned to resonate. They were securely supported at the base only and behaved as cantilever beams.

The BB 101 plate cell in the D9 document had loose plates inserted into a hard acrylic material with at least a 0.003" gap. This is also an ideal condition for resonating the plates.

On the other hand the current designed dry cells will never resonate (or frequency will be several magnitudes higher) simply because of the way the are clamped and the dampening effect of the rubber gasket !
01-19-2010 05:01 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
That may depend on how it reacts on the cellular level. This plate resonance is more on the physical/mechanical plane, and water resonance of course would be more electronic.
01-19-2010 05:56 PM
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jbalat Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
I was hoping that Bob could post some of his findings ? Are you still watching Bob ?
01-27-2010 07:44 PM
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BobBoyce Offline
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RE: Proof that resonance exists ?
Yes I am here, once in a while. The plates in my designs are not loose in the slots, there is a .0003" interference fit of the plates in the slots. As I have mentioned elsewhere, the resonance that I work with is not acoustical, nor is it electrical. It is quantum in nature. The cells are not capacitors, they are loads.

I do not want to post any further on this site, as I am not desiring to educate certain others that also post here. I fully intend to let them to continue down the paths they are on. Too bad they may lead others astray in the process, but I have given plenty of warning.

Bob Boyce
01-29-2010 09:04 AM
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