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Pumps, Foam, Tubing
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DodgeViper Offline
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Post: #1
Pumps, Foam, Tubing
Has anyone experimented using a low volume pump to pump the electrolyte through the cells and back to the reservoir? If you have did it decrease the amount of foam entering the bubbler? Also I am wondering if the output tubing say, ¾” tubing between the cells and the bubbler would help eliminate the foam. I am thinking of less pressure may not allow to push the foam into the bubbler. When producing nearly 3.5 LPM of HHO I am getting to much foam leaving my first bubbler and heading towards my 2nd bubbler that contains vinegar.

I do NOT want to ruin a motor or the aluminum within the motor due to the harsh use of Potassium Hydroxide.

All these pumps are 12v DC that can pump from 80 GPH to 200 GPH. I have used a few of these pumps on computer projects I use to do years ago.

[Image: 12v%20DC%20Pump.png]

[Image: Pump%201.png]

[Image: pump%202.png]

[Image: pump%204.png]

[Image: Hydrogen%20Powered.jpg]
2002 Dodge Quad Cab 4x4 Ram
4.7L EFI
03-14-2009 04:43 PM
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benny Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-14-2009 04:43 PM)DodgeViper Wrote:  Has anyone experimented using a low volume pump to pump the electrolyte through the cells and back to the reservoir? If you have did it decrease the amount of foam entering the bubbler? Also I am wondering if the output tubing say, ¾” tubing between the cells and the bubbler would help eliminate the foam. I am thinking of less pressure may not allow to push the foam into the bubbler. When producing nearly 3.5 LPM of HHO I am getting to much foam leaving my first bubbler and heading towards my 2nd bubbler that contains vinegar.

I do NOT want to ruin a motor or the aluminum within the motor due to the harsh use of Potassium Hydroxide.

All these pumps are 12v DC that can pump from 80 GPH to 200 GPH. I have used a few of these pumps on computer projects I use to do years ago.

Where there is contact between electrolyte and metal, unless your pump is specifically designed and manufactured for pumping hazardous fluids, you are almost guaranteed to have problems with corrosion.

Have a look at an alternative type of pump here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peristaltic_pump

No contact with fluid other than the soft plastic pipe carrying same.
No valves, no vanes.
As I said in another post, with the appropriate machine tools, it should be relatively easy to fabricate something similar.
One hint. Use ball bearings, of the sealed-for-life type, as used on motor shafts, etc, for the fluid driving wheels on the rotor.
03-15-2009 05:59 AM
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Tom1803 Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
Something I don't understand, why do you need a pump? If you place a tank above the generator with a tube from the bottom of this tank to the bottom of the generator and a tube from the top of the generator to a spot below the low water line of the tank, when the generator is running and there are bubbles rising through the upper hose of the generator these bubbles will be pushing water along the tube and at the sametime water will need to travel from the bottom of the tank to replace the water rising out of the generator. And if you have been careful while building your generator and kept everthing clean there will be no foam, so there will not be anything but HHO going to the engine.
It works I used this system on some of my early generators as a keep fill, And plan on using this on my dry cell as soon as the parts get to me.

2002 PT Cruser 2.4
Phoenix, Arizona
03-15-2009 04:01 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-15-2009 04:01 PM)Tom1803 Wrote:  Something I don't understand, why do you need a pump? If you place a tank above the generator with a tube from the bottom of this tank to the bottom of the generator and a tube from the top of the generator to a spot below the low water line of the tank, when the generator is running and there are bubbles rising through the upper hose of the generator these bubbles will be pushing water along the tube and at the sametime water will need to travel from the bottom of the tank to replace the water rising out of the generator. And if you have been careful while building your generator and kept everthing clean there will be no foam, so there will not be anything but HHO going to the engine.
It works I used this system on some of my early generators as a keep fill, And plan on using this on my dry cell as soon as the parts get to me.
dodgeviper:
I think Tom1803 has one heck of a point. I don't use KOH, or NaOH because of the fear of someday "Murphy's Law" will catchup to me and suck a bunch of caustic solution into my 80% aluminum engine. I use citric acid and have had foaming problems which I solved by a scrupulous cleaning[ running both of my sells, dry and a big bath with concentrated H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)]. I get a natural pumping action once my cells get warmed up. I too fail to see why you'd need a mechanical pump.
03-15-2009 08:39 PM
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benny Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-15-2009 08:39 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(03-15-2009 04:01 PM)Tom1803 Wrote:  Something I don't understand, why do you need a pump? If you place a tank above the generator with a tube from the bottom of this tank to the bottom of the generator and a tube from the top of the generator to a spot below the low water line of the tank, when the generator is running and there are bubbles rising through the upper hose of the generator these bubbles will be pushing water along the tube and at the sametime water will need to travel from the bottom of the tank to replace the water rising out of the generator. And if you have been careful while building your generator and kept everthing clean there will be no foam, so there will not be anything but HHO going to the engine.
It works I used this system on some of my early generators as a keep fill, And plan on using this on my dry cell as soon as the parts get to me.
dodgeviper:
I think Tom1803 has one heck of a point. I don't use KOH, or NaOH because of the fear of someday "Murphy's Law" will catchup to me and suck a bunch of caustic solution into my 80% aluminum engine. I use citric acid and have had foaming problems which I solved by a scrupulous cleaning[ running both of my sells, dry and a big bath with concentrated H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)]. I get a natural pumping action once my cells get warmed up. I too fail to see why you'd need a mechanical pump.

Two schools of thought. One with self aspiration, which you (and I), and as lot of others use.

The other advocates use of a pump, which is said to serve a number of purposes.

a. Keeps fluid level in the generator at a high level, keeping more plate area in contact with electrolyte.
b. Enhanced electrolyte flow helps remove heat from the generator.
c. Electrolyte flow helps dislodge bubbles from the plates faster/sooner than with self aspiration, giving more effective active area on the plates.

Both methods, pump or self aspiration, work.
Which works best, is more cost effective, and is easiest to set up and maintain, is debatable.

All a matter of personal preference..
03-16-2009 01:08 AM
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DodgeViper Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-15-2009 08:39 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  I think Tom1803 has one heck of a point. I don't use KOH, or NaOH because of the fear of someday "Murphy's Law" will catchup to me and suck a bunch of caustic solution into my 80% aluminum engine. I use citric acid and have had foaming problems which I solved by a scrupulous cleaning[ running both of my sells, dry and a big bath with concentrated H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)]. I get a natural pumping action once my cells get warmed up. I too fail to see why you'd need a mechanical pump.

Using KOH has been my biggest fear because of my engine being mainly aluminum. The use of a pump was just an idea. How I have my system plumbed works great as for the E fluid being carried by the gas is returning to the reservoir by the overflow line.

I am going to drain my entire system of distilled water/potassium hydroxide and pump vinegar through the entire system for a few hours. Then drain the vinegar and repeat this process one more time before pumping distilled water through the system.

I will then try once again before using pool de-foamer. If I have foam again then I have no choice but to use de-foamer. I have used this product in spas and it comes in contact with skin so it is harmless.

As for citric acid what kind of HHO gas production are you getting? Your the only person I have read using citric acid.

How often do you need to add citric acid to the reservoir?

What amount do you add to a gallon of distilled water to begin with?

Does your AMPS remain stable with citric acid?

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2002 Dodge Quad Cab 4x4 Ram
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03-16-2009 04:23 AM
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H20 Auto Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
Hey Dodge, I have the pump, it works well. It keeps it cleaner and higher volume of gas, due to pushing it through the cell. Also use a foam nox. It works well. See kit at http://www.hydroxymotorsports.com. its a hi-flow pump. $213.75. nothing on our system is cheap. But it does the job quite well. We installed our trucker cell yesterday on a 1998 detriot diesel. 12.7L. Its putting out 11 lpm of gas. He noticed a huge difference in power. But i will know soon on the mileage. Hope to get him 2 more MPG. Bob Boyce system really puts out high volume of gas.
Thanks
Mike

H2o Automotive LLC[/b]
03-16-2009 05:33 AM
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DodgeViper Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-16-2009 05:33 AM)H20 Auto Wrote:  Hey Dodge, I have the pump, it works well. It keeps it cleaner and higher volume of gas, due to pushing it through the cell. Also use a foam nox. It works well. See kit at http://www.hydroxymotorsports.com. its a hi-flow pump. $213.75. nothing on our system is cheap. But it does the job quite well. We installed our trucker cell yesterday on a 1998 detriot diesel. 12.7L. Its putting out 11 lpm of gas. He noticed a huge difference in power. But i will know soon on the mileage. Hope to get him 2 more MPG. Bob Boyce system really puts out high volume of gas.
Thanks
Mike

Thanks but no thanks... At $213.75 I do not need a pump. Having built water-cooled computers for years I know what pumps will work and what will not work in electrolyte at a far cheaper price. A high volume pump is not needed. I was only throwing out the idea not that I am going to use a pump...

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4.7L EFI
03-16-2009 04:52 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-16-2009 04:23 AM)DodgeViper Wrote:  
(03-15-2009 08:39 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  I think Tom1803 has one heck of a point. I don't use KOH, or NaOH because of the fear of someday "Murphy's Law" will catchup to me and suck a bunch of caustic solution into my 80% aluminum engine. I use citric acid and have had foaming problems which I solved by a scrupulous cleaning[ running both of my sells, dry and a big bath with concentrated H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)]. I get a natural pumping action once my cells get warmed up. I too fail to see why you'd need a mechanical pump.

Using KOH has been my biggest fear because of my engine being mainly aluminum. The use of a pump was just an idea. How I have my system plumbed works great as for the E fluid being carried by the gas is returning to the reservoir by the overflow line.

I am going to drain my entire system of distilled water/potassium hydroxide and pump vinegar through the entire system for a few hours. Then drain the vinegar and repeat this process one more time before pumping distilled water through the system.

I will then try once again before using pool de-foamer. If I have foam again then I have no choice but to use de-foamer. I have used this product in spas and it comes in contact with skin so it is harmless.

As for citric acid what kind of HHO gas production are you getting? Your the only person I have read using citric acid.

How often do you need to add citric acid to the reservoir?

What amount do you add to a gallon of distilled water to begin with?

Does your AMPS remain stable with citric acid?

I've got 2 cells hooked up to my '98 Nissan Maxima V6; one is the old brick in a bath, about 50 SS plates and the other is a rather small dry cell, 5N1, surface area of about 5 sq. in. per side. I know the brick in a bath is old hat and the small dry cell is too small but until the weather warms I don't feel like changing them out for a bigger dry cell.

Production is about 2 lpm, last time I measured [probably last October]; the brick in a bath puts out way more than the dry cell just by observation. Have not individually tested them.

I started out using the unsweetened colorless Kool Aid just for kicks and I'll be damned it worked just as well as acetic acid but I liked the smell of watermelons better than vinegar. I bought some food grade citric acid over the internet and it worked just as good as the store bought Kool Aid, but cost about 10 times as much.

I start out with about 1 tablespoon for 2 quarts of water, let the cells get up to running temp and then just add more citric acid until one of my 30 amp circuit breakers trip. When that happens I'll hook up my PWM and set it for 20 to 25 amps and add more distilled water after I removed some electrolyte. It's kind of a hit and miss approach but it works to get going. After that I just rely on he PWM and ammeter.

I live in a neck of the woods where 90 degree plus days in summer are the norm. As a result it usually takes a day or 3 or 4 to get the PWM right because of the direct relationship between the amp draw of the cells and the increased temp. Once I get the PWM set for the summer I rarely have to change it. Amp stability with citric acid is not as good as I've seen with KOH or NaOH. I like the acids as electrolytes because their atomic structure contains more hydrogen atoms than the bases. I've been thinking of phosponic acid and will try it when the weather warms and I replace my mismatched duo with a larg dry cell.
03-16-2009 05:35 PM
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benny Offline
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RE: Pumps, Foam, Tubing
(03-16-2009 05:35 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  I live in a neck of the woods where 90 degree plus days in summer are the norm. As a result it usually takes a day or 3 or 4 to get the PWM right because of the direct relationship between the amp draw of the cells and the increased temp. Once I get the PWM set for the summer I rarely have to change it. Amp stability with citric acid is not as good as I've seen with KOH or NaOH. I like the acids as electrolytes because their atomic structure contains more hydrogen atoms than the bases. I've been thinking of phosponic acid and will try it when the weather warms and I replace my mismatched duo with a larg dry cell.

Have you had a look at the something along the lines of the self-regulating PWM design by ZFF. Set and forget.
Takes up the slack in trying to balance electrolyte strength with required current draw.


WRT electrolyte type, does it make a lot of difference whether you use a base, or an acid type?

I was under the impression that electron flow (current) was what broke down the electrolyte by introducing 'free' electrons into the mix, which, in turn, interfered with the HO bonding, causing it to break down to its individual component gases. Can't see where there should be much difference between using a base (alkali) or acid type of electrolyte.
Electrical conductivity would seem to me to be the main criteria for choice of electrolyte type.
03-17-2009 03:19 AM
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