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Question about MAF sensor
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #1
Question about MAF sensor
Hi,

I have a question. What if I tap my HHO hose BEFORE the MAF sensor on my air intake... My thinking is: The amount of gasses (air and HHO combined) will be read by the sensor and therefore be processed by the ECU so it won't be fooled this way. Therfore I will not need any EFIE. So what about that?

Here is a fact. I have fitted a non standard air filter on my air intake to allow the engine to breeze better on the advise of my mechanic. It means that I have more air coming in so far that is obviously detected by the MAF sensor and therefore processed in the ECU. However I'm not sure about the actual outcome. Maybe I'm overfuelling already because of that in the first place..

If anyone can help me to see clearer that would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

[Image: Picture%20058%27.gif]

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 12-06-2008 05:51 PM by Zipstor.)
12-06-2008 05:14 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Question about MAF sensor
This has been discussed in the past (hho before or after MAF). My take is that there's not enough flow from your cell to change the amount of air passing past the MAF to make a difference in that sensor.

As far as helping to offset the need for an efie? I doubt that very much.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
12-06-2008 06:14 PM
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thomasbala Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Question about MAF sensor
Zipstor Wrote:Hi,

I have a question. What if I tap my HHO hose BEFORE the MAF sensor on my air intake... My thinking is: The amount of gasses (air and HHO combined) will be read by the sensor and therefore be processed by the ECU so it won't be fooled this way. Therfore I will not need any EFIE. So what about that?

Here is a fact. I have fitted a non standard air filter on my air intake to allow the engine to breeze better on the advise of my mechanic. It means that I have more air coming in so far that is obviously detected by the MAF sensor and therefore processed in the ECU. However I'm not sure about the actual outcome. Maybe I'm overfuelling already because of that in the first place..

If anyone can help me to see clearer that would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

[Image: Picture%20058%27.gif]

Looks like you've got the typical "hot filament" MAF. They work by heating up the filament and detecting the cooling effect of air flowing over the hot filament. The electrical resistance changes depending on temp. I don't think there's much of a danger of fire from HHO passing over the filament; however the oxidizing effect of HHO will shorten the life of the filament. A MAF sensor is usually $100.00 or more [junk yard price]. I think the consensus of opinion is your HHO injection should be as close to the throttle body butterfly as possible.
12-07-2008 01:09 AM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Question about MAF sensor
thomasbala Wrote:I think the consensus of opinion is your HHO injection should be as close to the throttle body butterfly as possible.

Why?

>> http://brownsgas.com
12-07-2008 03:35 PM
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RDKamikaze Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Question about MAF sensor
Zipstor Wrote:
thomasbala Wrote:I think the consensus of opinion is your HHO injection should be as close to the throttle body butterfly as possible.

Why?

AFAIK, you want to inject it as close as possible for a few reasons. You eliminate any chance of the HHO leaking out anywhere else (or building up in a certain spot) and the biggest one is it prevents an improper mixture of gas and intake air. Also, there is debate that HHO will ignite if it rests on the MAF sensor when it heats to up to 1000*F temporarily to burn any contaminants off itself (standard cleaning phase on certain sensors).

By the way, good choice in getting an aftermarket air intake. Upgrade #1 in ANY car IMHO, followed by a larger exhaust (they have quiet ones, too, no worries). Why? Well if you have a new air intake and not larger exhaust setup, it's like breathing in with a straw but breathing out through a coffee straw. That's the simplest way to explain intake and exhaust cooperation, straws.

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12-07-2008 04:18 PM
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realtyroy Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Question about MAF sensor
Zipstor Wrote:Hi,

I have a question. What if I tap my HHO hose BEFORE the MAF sensor on my air intake... My thinking is: The amount of gasses (air and HHO combined) will be read by the sensor and therefore be processed by the ECU so it won't be fooled this way. Therfore I will not need any EFIE. So what about that?

Here is a fact. I have fitted a non standard air filter on my air intake to allow the engine to breeze better on the advise of my mechanic. It means that I have more air coming in so far that is obviously detected by the MAF sensor and therefore processed in the ECU. However I'm not sure about the actual outcome. Maybe I'm overfuelling already because of that in the first place..

If anyone can help me to see clearer that would be much appreciated.

Cheers.

[Image: Picture%20058%27.gif]

You want to put the HHo as close to the intake valve as possible. That is what I think. The way I think is I want the gas to be as thick and strong as possible when it gets in the cylinder. Let the HHO and gas and air mix in the engine and not hho and air mixing in the supply tubing.
Now as far as using a better flowing air filter, that is always a good idea if that vehicle can use that but the engine is only going to pull in as much air as it needs to fill the cylinder each time the piston goes down and at higher rpm's the air doesn't have the same amount of time to get into the engine as it has at idle. If the intake system is restricted and the cylinder doesn't fill all the way at higher rpm's than the increased flow can help gain you a little more power. Remember that whatever goes in has to leave again through the exhaust. The increase in air going in means there will be more going out and if it doesn't all leave on the exhaust stroke than the new air fuel charge coming in on the intake stroke will be mixed a little with what was left over from the last exhaust stroke and not produce as much power.

I got a little off subject here but the new air filter is good but really not that big of a deal. It wont make you use anymore gas.

And that's why I wouldn't put the HHO before the MAF beside the fact you could eventually kill the MAF element by doing it before.

I hope this doesn't start an air filter debate but that's what I think.

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12-07-2008 04:57 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Question about MAF sensor
One good reason for close to the engine is you don't want it to revert back to water.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
12-07-2008 05:34 PM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Question about MAF sensor
I don't mind getting off the subjet as long as it remains interresting, school's out for us I suppose anyway.
RDKamikaze Wrote:AFAIK, you want to inject it as close as possible for a few reasons. You eliminate any chance of the HHO leaking out anywhere else
Why would it leak.. my intake is perfectly healthy. And if there a pin hole in it, both air and HHO would leak kind of proportionally anyway.
RDKamikaze Wrote:or building up in a certain spot
Here we are talking fluids mechanic, so I'd doubt it.
RDKamikaze Wrote:Also, there is debate that HHO will ignite if it rests on the MAF sensor when it heats to up to 1000*F
You mean by friction?? or backfire?
RDKamikaze Wrote:By the way, good choice in getting an aftermarket air intake. Upgrade #1 in ANY car IMHO, followed by a larger exhaust (they have quiet ones, too, no worries). Why? Well if you have a new air intake and not larger exhaust setup, it's like breathing in with a straw but breathing out through a coffee straw. That's the simplest way to explain intake and exhaust cooperation, straws.
Changing the whole exhaust line is too much work for me now, I mean, you make complete sense here, however the native exhaust pipe might be big enough maybe (1.5"), there was probably some play already between the original air box and the exhaust gauge at the first place.(and there is a leak in my exhaust pipe anyway so lets say it makes it even)
realtyroy Wrote:You want to put the HHo as close to the intake valve as possible. That is what I think. The way I think is I want the gas to be as thick and strong as possible when it gets in the cylinder. Let the HHO and gas and air mix in the engine and not hho and air mixing in the supply tubing.
Personally I would prefer the gas mix to be nice and even when it reaches the engine. Do I make sense?
realtyroy Wrote:Now as far as using a better flowing air filter, that is always a good idea if that vehicle can use that but the engine is only going to pull in as much air as it needs to fill the cylinder each time the piston goes down and at higher rpm's the air doesn't have the same amount of time to get into the engine as it has at idle. If the intake system is restricted and the cylinder doesn't fill all the way at higher rpm's than the increased flow can help gain you a little more power.
Yes thats the idea. And I guess it would avoid the engine to overfuel at high rev as well then (if we consider the ratio throttle:air intake being unbalanced when the car came out of the factory, as my mechanic was assuming).
realtyroy Wrote:Remember that whatever goes in has to leave again through the exhaust. The increase in air going in means there will be more going out and if it doesn't all leave on the exhaust stroke than the new air fuel charge coming in on the intake stroke will be mixed a little with what was left over from the last exhaust stroke and not produce as much power.
So how would I know if my exhaust pipe is to small for the intake.
btw:Are you guys really experienced on the subject? Personally I'm no mechanic, just assuming..
realtyroy Wrote:that's why I wouldn't put the HHO before the MAF beside the fact you could eventually kill the MAF element by doing it before.
Thats no big deal, I can flip'em around.
colchiro Wrote:One good reason for close to the engine is you don't want it to revert back to water.
How would that happen? I thought HHO was stable unless extreme heat or pressure.. And what if it reverse into water.. I dont mind, you guys would know that H2O injected inside piston does work anyway.

>> http://brownsgas.com
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2008 06:45 PM by Zipstor.)
12-07-2008 05:53 PM
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RDKamikaze Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Question about MAF sensor
Zipstor, HUGE bonus for disecting each one of our replies and answering accordingly. 'Nuff said, let's get back on topic school boys! lol

My Car:
2006 Toyota Solara 2.4L 4cyl.
-Aftermarket (JPP) header
-DNX exhaust
-Injen Short-Ram Intake (SRI)

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12-07-2008 06:33 PM
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Zipstor Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Question about MAF sensor
RDKamikaze Wrote:Zipstor, HUGE bonus for disecting each one of our replies and answering accordingly. 'Nuff said, let's get back on topic school boys! lol
Well thats the way to get the best out of a debate is'nt it. Are your from down under, you said no worries.

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12-07-2008 06:37 PM
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