Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Author Message
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #11
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
daddymikey1975 Wrote:
mobilehydricity Wrote:If available , I use the tach out pulse. Included is a schm. of an earlier circuit that is a standalone unit .Hope it helps you. MIKE

That's what I'm referring to is the tach pulse...and use this to control duty cycle so that at idle, we're not making max production, while sacrificing 'some' at highway speeds... we could also use the speed signal from the transmission to the ECU if you want something more relative to speed.
Again, I have access to this info as well specifically wire color, location, and pulses per mile. This could be used to control duty cycle to ramp up production as speed increases and 'top out' at the sweet spot for your motor at a given speed.

For example some newer GM vehicles have a green/white wire behind the radio that gives you 4000 pulses per mile. The radio needs this pulse info for their speed control volume feature. If needed, I can also tell you where at the ECU this wire can be found as well, and for other cars.

No need for magnets on the driveshaft. Although, I've used that method for getting a speed signal on some older vehicles while installing cruise control.

I have some GREAT access to good information if anyone wants to try to incorporate it and see if it works. I'm just not an electrical engineer and wouldn't be able to incorporate this idea into a working circuit.

mike

YEP.. YOU ARE ON THE SAME TRACK I"VE BEEN ON.. SEEMS LIKE THE WAY TO GO. on http://www.freewebs.com/mobilehydricty , I wrote( a new approach to EFIE /MAPS ),and a block diagram indicating mixture burns and a servo to control hydrogen flow based upon accelleration and compartive feedback from the ecu. The point that seems to be bypassed is , that we are not dealing with a hydrogen /oxygen built engine.. still an air pump, so the mixture of owy/ h2 and petro becomes important in the gosh almighty gasoline engine... The particulars seem to always indicate that , people are trying to make a gasoline powered air pump run on as much BROWNS GAS or applicable flashpoint materials as possible , hoping to get better gas millage. In fact , the electrolizers, are designed for and should be used as a suppliment to the mix. Therefore the amount of BROWNS GAS should be controlled , The method that seems to work the best for me .. is to use electrodes , limiting the voltage and current to 3.2 vdc at 1.85 amps at the max , on the simple tanks , I,ve been building, Therefore at idle or 1100 rpms or so, the amount of H2 needed is less and therefore should be regulated by the power supply / limiter circuit and I think now with a servo controlled valve that is responsivie to the emisions in the exhaust, with inert gas feed back . AS you accelerate the burn conditions change , temp , etc ..all variables that can be compensated for by feedback. The idea is to achieve the best burn /ie combustion with the fuels at hand at varying loads .. Been working on a design pcb to control these aspects.. your info would be greatly appreciated.. I try to look at things from a dumb standpoint, then engineer or design some type of circuit to retrofit the needs. Sometimes called, my ignorance is sometimes my brilliance in asking why or how does this work etc. I haven;t used the magnet concept in some time either, except on a few old tractors, I,converted ,and needed something to use as a feed back monitor in relationship to rpms, works pretty good on a beast of such that is basically all brawn. On my website, there is a practical circuit , I designed, for cooking with hydrogen.. haven't got to build this one yet, but in theory it should work... this circuit has some adaptable x factors, that may help.. Hope to keep in touch with you more in the future, GOOD WORK OLD CHUM. and I could use some info that would help me in designing a pcb that could be used in a general mode for all purposes. A RAMPMING PULSE , I BELIEVE IS A MUST HAVE... The school is still out for me on EFIES and such... if you can control the mix at combustion for an optimum then the amount of free O molecules is minimized, hence forth let the ecu do its thing and regulate the appropiate quanities at the input with minute changes.THANKS FOR THE REPLY MIKE
10-22-2008 11:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
daddymikey1975 Offline
Member
***

Posts: 107
Joined: Sep 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #12
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
you're welcome. for helping with the idea, i get your first prototype to test Smile

for a ramping pulse tied to vehicle speed use the Speed Sense from the transmission. I can help with vehicle specifics (wire color location, pulses per mile) speed of pulses would increase as ground speed increased.

2. Ramping pulse coming from the computer's tach signal. Tells the spark plugs when to fire. Pulses are tied to engine RPM as opposed to ground speed. I think this is the way to go as the idea here is to have optimum mix of HHO and fuel and this ideal mix may differ at different RPMs .. . I can help with this as well with vehicle specific wire color and location.

Let me know if I can be of any help..

also we would still need a trim pot to do initial voltage bias.. and the ramp pulse would vary up and/or down from this threshold.

mike
10-22-2008 03:31 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #13
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
daddymikey1975 Wrote:you're welcome. for helping with the idea, i get your first prototype to test Smile

for a ramping pulse tied to vehicle speed use the Speed Sense from the transmission. I can help with vehicle specifics (wire color location, pulses per mile) speed of pulses would increase as ground speed increased.

2. Ramping pulse coming from the computer's tach signal. Tells the spark plugs when to fire. Pulses are tied to engine RPM as opposed to ground speed. I think this is the way to go as the idea here is to have optimum mix of HHO and fuel and this ideal mix may differ at different RPMs .. . I can help with this as well with vehicle specific wire color and location.
a
Let me know if I can be of any help..



mike
I BELEIVE WE ARE BOTH PRETTY MUCH ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH HERE!.. Your approximation of varying changes in relationship to rpm seems to be correct with what I have discovered, furthermore the relationship is not linear , with other factors such air temp etc affecting this.. It still seems to boil down to the fact of a optimal fuel fixture that can change upon demand of load varances.This , I believe, can be achieved by some of the methods previously discussed. The bias pot is good idea ... I had already worked that part in , calling the reference bias. all samples being compared would + or - the reference point. This off course
would be a varable depneding upon engine type etc. once set , although , this should alow for a non linear scaleable vdc output to drive the tank. Current limiting is the key here and bieng able to maintain a constant source vdc while varing the current to the electroilizer , woul be the effect. also the feedback from the exhaust , set as a constant with a varing vakve from the hho output mixed and then inputed the air flow system show allow for the ecu to be tricked into a mono stable operation in regards to O2 sensors relationship to lean /rich controls. I have on some earlier models of cars , simply mech. reduced the flow of petro , by install a valve in the fuel line. This doesn't seem to work on newer model cars with slightly more sophisticted ecu's... More on this later MIKE
10-23-2008 09:45 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Mavrick Offline
Member
***

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #14
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Hi All,
New to this forum and also my first post but have been a tinker forever! I have some electronics and engineering background. About 10 years ago I did a do it yourself CCD camera for amateur astronomers. See if interested http://www.ccdguy.com/files/GenesisCCD.PDF One of the things I did for this camera was build a power supply that would control a peltier device to hold a set temperature to +/- .01 C. Something like a miniature refrigeration device using a microcontroller. Used ether 12VDC or wall current. Had dual digital LED's one for set point and actual temp readout.

Now here is what I was thinking when I read this thread. It wouldn't be all that difficult to adapt the same principals to do a current regulated output for the HHO along with digital EFIE control. The feedback or sampling is the trick! How about monitoring intake air flow. I recently saw some literature for a digital inline flow meter. See http://www.stangnet.com/Mustang-Aftermar...80918.html Technically it is sampling the MAF sensor so we might be able to tie into that to get the feedback to drive the whole thing. Then we are in control of the cars computer and will be able to tweak it in and then let it do its thing.

What do you all think?
11-07-2008 03:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #15
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Mavrick Wrote:Hi All,
New to this forum and also my first post but have been a tinker forever! I have some electronics and engineering background. About 10 years ago I did a do it yourself CCD camera for amateur astronomers. See if interested http://www.ccdguy.com/files/GenesisCCD.PDF One of the things I did for this camera was build a power supply that would control a peltier device to hold a set temperature to +/- .01 C. Something like a miniature refrigeration device using a microcontroller. Used ether 12VDC or wall current. Had dual digital LED's one for set point and actual temp readout.

Now here is what I was thinking when I read this thread. It wouldn't be all that difficult to adapt the same principals to do a current regulated output for the HHO along with digital EFIE control. The feedback or sampling is the trick! How about monitoring intake air flow. I recently saw some literature for a digital inline flow meter. See http://www.stangnet.com/Mustang-Aftermar...80918.html Technically it is sampling the MAF sensor so we might be able to tie into that to get the feedback to drive the whole thing. Then we are in control of the cars computer and will be able to tweak it in and then let it do its thing.

What do you all think?

I think your on to something too!... The difference in thinking in terms of analog symetry , such as trying to fool the ecu by changing the feedback voltages .. verse .. digital, bit banging, is a world of difference. A whole scale of events can be sampled , compared and then output levels and ramp pulses etc can be generated by a outboard generated table of events. Let the ecu do its thing , control the input events to derive a desired result. Some of the newer chip sets are very low voltage , check out INTERSIL . BEST REGARDS MIKE!
11-08-2008 01:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #16
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
daddymikey1975 Wrote:you're welcome. for helping with the idea, i get your first prototype to test Smile

for a ramping pulse tied to vehicle speed use the Speed Sense from the transmission. I can help with vehicle specifics (wire color location, pulses per mile) speed of pulses would increase as ground speed increased.

2. Ramping pulse coming from the computer's tach signal. Tells the spark plugs when to fire. Pulses are tied to engine RPM as opposed to ground speed. I think this is the way to go as the idea here is to have optimum mix of HHO and fuel and this ideal mix may differ at different RPMs .. . I can help with this as well with vehicle specific wire color and location.

Let me know if I can be of any help..

also we would still need a trim pot to do initial voltage bias.. and the ramp pulse would vary up and/or down from this threshold.

mike

STINKS YOUR RIGHT ABOUT THE RAMPING PULSE.. A BETTER RELATIONSHIP , AS YOU SUGGESTED TO GROUND SPEED VERSE RPMS
MIKE
11-08-2008 01:23 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Mavrick Offline
Member
***

Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #17
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Thanks Mike. Most when driving high current outputs like this do rapid on/off switching PWM to arrive at the desired regulation. I went the other way. My PIC did 20 samples a second by temperature feedback (external LM335)then a vote up or down from the PIC. So in essence we were ramping current from the MOSFET as so we did not over or under shoot target set point. Worked far better than I ever though it would. So this principal is directly transferable for this application. Now we can sample Engine and exhaust temperature, air flow, and outputs would then control EFIE(S) and power to the HHO. Make the whole thing USB programmable for tweaks as we figure them out. Once you get a pile of people using these things we will quickly find out the perfect recipes for maximum MPG formulas.

I know it sounds simple but if you get to technical it is hard to get your arms around it and embrace it. I DO tend to think out of the box. But it has always bothered me that the brute force approach to fooling the ECU and expecting stable operation across the board just doesn't cut it with me. Ya you can make it work but I sure wouldn't want my wife trying to adjust it! Wink

I thought about this a bit more and I'm wrong about one thing so I'm editing this post a little. The MOFSET ramping would be the way to go but the PWM in addition is a good thing. If the duty cycle of the pulse is tuned to a frequency as others have found out it is very beneficial. So buy regulating the current only and let the tuned PMW do its thing I think we got something!

Make my day
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2008 06:15 PM by Mavrick.)
11-08-2008 01:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
gasman Offline
Member
***

Posts: 2
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #18
Exclamation RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
WoW!!! You guys are really over-thinking this issue. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, you could use a tach pick-up from a discarded automotive timing light, or other equipment. But I have an idea that I will give a brief outline of: setup your system for maximum output. Find an old GM MAP sensor and make up a 5vdc referrence signal and ground. Adjust the resistences to match your pwm control pot, and inject the map signal. As you said, generators are too slow to respond to RPM changes, and this is by no means the end-all solution either! But keying the pwm to LOAD conditions is easier than trying to work with RPM changes. You would have to allow for gross change before making small adjustments in the generator. You like...?
11-09-2008 11:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Yodamaker Offline
Member
***

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #19
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
I have a question and i am no expert by any means when it comes to the circuitry ( although I have been cramming over the last month learning everything I can.

Yes, at idle you need less HHO production. But, my probe in top hwy gear (overdrive) only hits around 2000 RPM or so maybe lower at cruising speeds. At that point wouldn't it be a better option to retard the timing and let the HHO become the predominate fuel if production is capable? The idea of limiting the production to RPM would reduce production at cruising speeds for some cars. The speed sensor may be able to overide the control at higher speeds like High end and low end style of setup, maybe.

My understanding is that the main difference between a alternative fuel engine and a gasoline engine is the combination of when and how much fuel is allowed into the combustion chamber and the timing of the spark to ignite the fuel. Adjusting for fuel burn characteristics would be the ultimate conversion to burn any fuel option. Developing a ECU interceptor to control these aspects seems to be the way to go for sure.

I think the hurdle is more complicated coming from the gasoline side of the equation in combination with the added or boosting effect fuel. If the ratios are reversed and the HHO can become the predominate fuel in the combustion chamber then adjusting or compensating for the adjustment of burn characteristics would be prefferable, don't you think? Rather than limiting the production?

Just something to run through your brain pan...

89 Ford Probe 4cyl 51mpg/hwy
http://www.greatertech.com
11-10-2008 12:22 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #20
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Mavrick Wrote:Thanks Mike. Most when driving high current outputs like this do rapid on/off switching PWM to arrive at the desired regulation. I went the other way. My PIC did 20 samples a second by temperature feedback (external LM335)then a vote up or down from the PIC. So in essence we were ramping current from the MOSFET as so we did not over or under shoot target set point. Worked far better than I ever though it would. So this principal is directly transferable for this application. Now we can sample Engine and exhaust temperature, air flow, and outputs would then control EFIE(S) and power to the HHO. Make the whole thing USB programmable for tweaks as we figure them out. Once you get a pile of people using these things we will quickly find out the perfect recipes for maximum MPG formulas.

I know it sounds simple but if you get to technical it is hard to get your arms around it and embrace it. I DO tend to think out of the box. But it has always bothered me that the brute force approach to fooling the ECU and expecting stable operation across the board just doesn't cut it with me. Ya you can make it work but I sure wouldn't want my wife trying to adjust it! Wink

I thought about this a bit more and I'm wrong about one thing so I'm editing this post a little. The MOFSET ramping would be the way to go but the PWM in addition is a good thing. If the duty cycle of the pulse is tuned to a frequency as others have found out it is very beneficial. So buy regulating the current only and let the tuned PMW do its thing I think we got something!

GOOD DEAL: You are on the right track!.. Again I agree that trying to fool the ecu with the EFIE is not the overall solution. Its good to see your tooling around with a pic controller, a flash rom could be be used for storing parameters . I have even been looking at adapting some old ISO 7816 cards to store the pars.. make it easy by just inserting a card for the type car your driving. Again this would require a collection of data from real time use to be exact, an assumed set of alogrithims could probably be dirived that could generate a table for different engines etc. ONE CONTROL UNIT WITH A CARD SLOT! A method I have been playing with, for some time is to use the process of electrolysis ,limiting current and voltage ,so as a minimal output, at engine idle ,was developed ,from the generator . The later is ,I have been using a light source pulsed from 40 cps to 481 cps , on the sprectrum hydrogen equates to about that, 10 -9 log in freq. By changing the pulse via light I have been able to somewhat scale the output to varing degrees above the idle state , so at idle a small amount from the generator is always present and as you graduate in speed the light exciter caused increases in production of gas present. Another method, some cleaver BRITS have been working on , is sound transducers tuned and excited by a varable osc to produce different levels of generator outputs. As of late I have been looking at adapting some RC car/plane servo circuits as a driver unit for a mechanical valve to physically control the flow at the intake. These circuits are neat for bit banging the control data and cheap. I have been experimenting with a $1.29 aqua valve attaching a cheap rc servo to the control sleeve. It appears to be very responsive to minute changes and tends to quickly adjust the valve setting . There are, of course, pre manufactured selenoid driven flow valves available , the cheapest I have found is around $485.00..A bit pricey, henceforth the testing of a cheaper solution. I should be posting here and on my website http://www.freewebs.com/mobilehydricity ,the circuits for this shortly, Working towards a one circuit board design. Keep up the good work! I myself have never lived in a box, seems like it would be somewhat mentally confining. BEST REGARDS MIKE!
11-10-2008 07:05 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)