Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Author Message
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #21
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
gasman Wrote:WoW!!! You guys are really over-thinking this issue. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, you could use a tach pick-up from a discarded automotive timing light, or other equipment. But I have an idea that I will give a brief outline of: setup your system for maximum output. Find an old GM MAP sensor and make up a 5vdc referrence signal and ground. Adjust the resistences to match your pwm control pot, and inject the map signal. As you said, generators are too slow to respond to RPM changes, and this is by no means the end-all solution either! But keying the pwm to LOAD conditions is easier than trying to work with RPM changes. You would have to allow for gross change before making small adjustments in the generator. You like...?

GOOD THINKING: THE SIMPLER THE BETTER AND LESS IS MORE:
The addition of smart circuits to the stew , although tend to change the game a bit. analog samples and modifictions thereof fall to the wayside while cheap processing of multable inputs becomes a means to feed the ecu, henceforth more accuratly controlling the burn mixture. And when I say cheap , I do mean cheap processing is available . The pic controller is a good example of such, another would be the basic stamp as a controller , for the beginer !.. Stay tuned .. I think thinds are going to become much more interesting. BEST REGARDS MIKE
11-10-2008 07:17 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #22
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Yodamaker Wrote:I have a question and i am no expert by any means when it comes to the circuitry ( although I have been cramming over the last month learning everything I can.

Yes, at idle you need less HHO production. But, my probe in top hwy gear (overdrive) only hits around 2000 RPM or so maybe lower at cruising speeds. At that point wouldn't it be a better option to retard the timing and let the HHO become the predominate fuel if production is capable? The idea of limiting the production to RPM would reduce production at cruising speeds for some cars. The speed sensor may be able to overide the control at higher speeds like High end and low end style of setup, maybe.

My understanding is that the main difference between a alternative fuel engine and a gasoline engine is the combination of when and how much fuel is allowed into the combustion chamber and the timing of the spark to ignite the fuel. Adjusting for fuel burn characteristics would be the ultimate conversion to burn any fuel option. Developing a ECU interceptor to control these aspects seems to be the way to go for sure.

I think the hurdle is more complicated coming from the gasoline side of the equation in combination with the added or boosting effect fuel. If the ratios are reversed and the HHO can become the predominate fuel in the combustion chamber then adjusting or compensating for the adjustment of burn characteristics would be prefferable, don't you think? Rather than limiting the production?

Just something to run through your brain pan...

BRAIN STORMING IS GOOD!
THe major hurdle is ,gasoline engines were not really designed to use other fuels
. The ecu was engineered for a gas, oxy mix and to be variable by a rich/ lean signature. Overall, the ecu does its hicky over a wide scope of enviroments, ie TEMP , ALTITUDE , SPEED , WEIGHT LOADS ETC.
From a design standpoint , it would be much easier to design a engine that uses the particular fuel in question. But, the gasoline motor is everywhere, A math model some friends and I ran recently showed that if you could convert 10% of the autos that exits now, a year , it would take 200 years to convert every one. To sum up, with any alterantive fuel in a gas burner , your still gonna be stuck with having to burn some gasoline due too its inhierent design. You could ofcourse refine your own biofuels to compensate. MIKE
11-10-2008 07:28 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #23
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
SUMATIONS:
A controlled mix is the best one can hope for in gas engines. Jaycar , makes and distributes a programable ignition controller which allows you to change the timing of the spark as well as increasing the sparks voltage, a hotter spark indeed, henceforth a better burn. There are quite a few gizmos on the market and if you applied every one of these so called fuel saving gizmos , at one time, I doubt you would save any money in fuel do to the cost of the conversion. LESS IS MORE! BACK TO SPARK ISSUE! I recently paralled a RE DOG FENCE charger to the output of my ignition coil. These units run on 12 volts. Using a old TV HIGH VOLTAGE PROBE..I measured the new output.. ALl I can say is wow! Another cheap conversion. The red dog accually works much like the old fly back in a tv, with a pulse of about 1.8 mhz. Orginally did this to a car in FLORIDA about four years ago. While we noticed better horse power and a cleaner exhaust, we didn't have the equipment available to validate the results. BACK TO SUMMATIONS. Its easy to see that the direction and focus is begining to change in favor of some of the idea that have been poping up in this thread. I remember , a few weeks ago , posting my first thread, A NEW APRROACH TO EFIE/MAPS ETC) , I hope to be able work with all in the weeks ahead in order to combine the best of the brain storming that has been appearing. It appears a lot of talent has begun to emerge. I will personnally be busy the next few day s on some other projects. I hope to be able to post and or email some pcb designs to you fellows , hoping of course that you can add to and improve the concepts .The use of a pic controller is a cool idea. BEST REGARDS MIKE
11-10-2008 07:59 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #24
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
mobilehydricity Wrote:
Yodamaker Wrote:I have a question and i am no expert by any means when it comes to the circuitry ( although I have been cramming over the last month learning everything I can.

Yes, at idle you need less HHO production. But, my probe in top hwy gear (overdrive) only hits around 2000 RPM or so maybe lower at cruising speeds. At that point wouldn't it be a better option to retard the timing and let the HHO become the predominate fuel if production is capable? The idea of limiting the production to RPM would reduce production at cruising speeds for some cars. The speed sensor may be able to overide the control at higher speeds like High end and low end style of setup, maybe.

My understanding is that the main difference between a alternative fuel engine and a gasoline engine is the combination of when and how much fuel is allowed into the combustion chamber and the timing of the spark to ignite the fuel. Adjusting for fuel burn characteristics would be the ultimate conversion to burn any fuel option. Developing a ECU interceptor to control these aspects seems to be the way to go for sure.

I think the hurdle is more complicated coming from the gasoline side of the equation in combination with the added or boosting effect fuel. If the ratios are reversed and the HHO can become the predominate fuel in the combustion chamber then adjusting or compensating for the adjustment of burn characteristics would be prefferable, don't you think? Rather than limiting the production?

Just something to run through your brain pan...

BRAIN STORMING IS GOOD!
THe major hurdle is ,gasoline engines were not really designed to use other fuels
. The ecu was engineered for a gas, oxy mix and to be variable by a rich/ lean signature. Overall, the ecu does its hicky over a wide scope of enviroments, ie TEMP , ALTITUDE , SPEED , WEIGHT LOADS ETC.
From a design standpoint , it would be much easier to design a engine that uses the particular fuel in question. But, the gasoline motor is everywhere, A math model some friends and I ran recently showed that if you could convert 10% of the autos that exits now, a year , it would take 200 years to convert every one. To sum up, with any alterantive fuel in a gas burner , your still gonna be stuck with having to burn some gasoline due too its inhierent design. You could ofcourse refine your own biofuels to compensate. MIKE

PS I LIKE THE TERM ECU INTERCEPTER... pretty well sums the concepts that are emerging , in this thread as a single gizmo solution.
11-10-2008 08:02 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #25
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
mobilehydricity Wrote:SUMATIONS:
A controlled mix is the best one can hope for in gas engines. Jaycar , makes and distributes a programable ignition controller which allows you to change the timing of the spark as well as increasing the sparks voltage, a hotter spark indeed, henceforth a better burn. There are quite a few gizmos on the market and if you applied every one of these so called fuel saving gizmos , at one time, I doubt you would save any money in fuel do to the cost of the conversion. LESS IS MORE! BACK TO SPARK ISSUE! I recently paralled a RE DOG FENCE charger to the output of my ignition coil. These units run on 12 volts. Using a old TV HIGH VOLTAGE PROBE..I measured the new output.. ALl I can say is wow! Another cheap conversion. The red dog accually works much like the old fly back in a tv, with a pulse of about 1.8 mhz. Orginally did this to a car in FLORIDA about four years ago. While we noticed better horse power and a cleaner exhaust, we didn't have the equipment available to validate the results. BACK TO SUMMATIONS. Its easy to see that the direction and focus is begining to change in favor of some of the idea that have been poping up in this thread. I remember , a few weeks ago , posting my first thread, A NEW APRROACH TO EFIE/MAPS ETC) , I hope to be able work with all in the weeks ahead in order to combine the best of the brain storming that has been appearing. It appears a lot of talent has begun to emerge. I will personnally be busy the next few day s on some other projects. I hope to be able to post and or email some pcb designs to you fellows , hoping of course that you can add to and improve the concepts .The use of a pic controller is a cool idea. BEST REGARDS MIKE

AT LAST ONE LAST STATEMENT BEFORE I GET WHACKED ON THE HEAD!
A gasoilne engine can be converted to run 100% hydrogen, but the overall and complete converstion process is so costly that for all practical purposes I personnally chose to negate this as an option for the time being. Injector spark plugs is one of the steps , and another is to do a valve and piston job , coating the exterior with ceramic . I have worked on and played with some of these exotic converstions .. and while you can develope an end product its labour and cost intensisve making it impractical as a alternative mode for the masses at the moment. SO SAYETH MIKE!
11-10-2008 08:13 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Yodamaker Offline
Member
***

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #26
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
I believe that we have touched on the holy grail of the situation. The ECU is the key. It was programmed for the conditions of burning gasoline not anything else. Has anyone thought about reprogramming the ECU rather than just manipulating the sensor data?

It's the ECU that makes it a gasoline setup. The engine doesnt care wether it is gasoline or another fuel really, it's just an internal combustion engine. With that being said, even the BMW hybrid has a hydrogen system and a gasoline system side by side and can switch fuels on the fly. It seems to me that all we would need to do is alter the programming of the ECU to accomodate the alternate fuel or the change in the burn characteristics when mixing the fuels.

I realize that all this research and effort would seem consuming and the circuitry we need is already in the car. If we can find the correct parameters, we should be able to re-program the existing ECU. That would eliminate the need for countless circuits and bypass electronic countermeasures. Not all cars have the same computer components so there will always be some cars that dont fit into the equation. But the expense would be a software solution rather than a hardware nightmare.

89 Ford Probe 4cyl 51mpg/hwy
http://www.greatertech.com
(This post was last modified: 11-10-2008 09:49 AM by Yodamaker.)
11-10-2008 09:48 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
gasman Offline
Member
***

Posts: 2
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #27
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
...wow, did anybody READ my post? You guys are OBVIOUSLY very intelligent and well trained in electronics... give the automotive guy a bone and consider my idea, if for nothing other than to discredit it!
11-10-2008 10:53 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AlexR Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 187
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #28
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Guys,

lots of good brainstorming here.

there is a product to basically 'reprogram' any ECU. It's called a Megasquirt. it is an ECU replacement. all sensors plug into this and you programm everything yourself. I believe the price is 1 - 2 Grand. Steep learning curve too, I'm sure.

As to the RPM idea, I agree with one of the above posters. A microcontroller is the best solution, because you can program it to do just about anything. Yes, there is a learning curve, but there is a lot that can be done. Basically you write a program on your PC then program your chip in the circuit via USB or Serial, disconnect and it does what you tell it. The BASIC stamp comes to mind here.

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
11-10-2008 11:17 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Yodamaker Offline
Member
***

Posts: 69
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #29
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
gasman Wrote:...wow, did anybody READ my post? You guys are OBVIOUSLY very intelligent and well trained in electronics... give the automotive guy a bone and consider my idea, if for nothing other than to discredit it!

I read your post and have no way of proving or disproving your statement. It sound like something to try. When you hook it up, let us know what your results are. I personally dont have a PWM on my personal setup (I havent found one that I like). But I'm picky I guess.

My thinking is that unless we can produce more HHO than is allowed for with available adjustments, limiting of the current would only be beneficail at idle rpm levels and would only be part of the equation that would be the complete control package.

The thing is we can make variable resistance and increases accross the entire sensor spectrum, so why not make a control unit that will allow us to function those with one unit like the conductor of a symphony. The control units out there are very price restrictive, it cannot cost that much to make it for god sakes. Even if it were 2-500 dollars it would be worth it, and we could chalk one up for the everyday enthusiast.

Does any of you have the ablilty or willingness to design and possibly build it? I think that if we put our resources together we could. I am a computer M.I.S. by trade but i have very little experience in board level circuitry. But, i can solder, lol.

89 Ford Probe 4cyl 51mpg/hwy
http://www.greatertech.com
11-10-2008 02:49 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
mobilehydricity Offline
Member
***

Posts: 40
Joined: Oct 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #30
RE: RPM controls the PWM ?? I have an idea..
Yodamaker Wrote:I believe that we have touched on the holy grail of the situation. The ECU is the key. It was programmed for the conditions of burning gasoline not anything else. Has anyone thought about reprogramming the ECU rather than just manipulating the sensor data?

It's the ECU that makes it a gasoline setup. The engine doesnt care wether it is gasoline or another fuel really, it's just an internal combustion engine. With that being said, even the BMW hybrid has a hydrogen system and a gasoline system side by side and can switch fuels on the fly. It seems to me that all we would need to do is alter the programming of the ECU to accomodate the alternate fuel or the change in the burn characteristics when mixing the fuels.

I realize that all this research and effort would seem consuming and the circuitry we need is already in the car. If we can find the correct parameters, we should be able to re-program the existing ECU. That would eliminate the need for countless circuits and bypass electronic countermeasures. Not all cars have the same computer components so there will always be some cars that dont fit into the equation. But the expense would be a software solution rather than a hardware nightmare.

HOWDY: Your right about the rom code of th ECU. Problem as I see it is that access to the ECU is very poor. In the early days , when first introduced, sorta of a beta test, in an earlier thread I wrote , that some friends and I, used to reprogram the ecu's. the rom code was written in MOTOROLA MC 680000 machine code. In some, we were able to replace the existing processor with a TMS 7742 , which is a programable processor. I haven't the foggest what is being used these days in current ECU units. Never the less, PICS and basic stamps are pretty good for using as a emulator..after all, no matter what type of chip set is being used, its still a proceesor with a rom code telling it what to do ie RETROFIT!.. I caution here , that the cost factor via labour intensive and skill level could be inhibitive for some. I , am , well versed in pcb design, smc. sma etc. , lsi and write in 18 different computer languages, I have about 35 years expierence in building retrofit boards and writing software.Even as such the best design rule for me, has been to modify the existing hardware. Most ECU units , That I have viewed recently are covered with a security epoxy, this can be removed using a 1200 to 1400 watt paint striping gun. Next , you have to identify the proceesor and is associated componets, i/o devices, gates and so forth. fear not , because, even if it turns out to be of a LSI nature, the rom code still has to be transmitted to the unit at the completion of its inseption on an assembly line, which means somwhere is a i/o with a gate that allows you to R/W ,read /write, caution some programble chips have a built in fusable link, that only allows for a single write and checksum then the internal fuse blows .So the race would be on ,to gain access to the rom code, so as it could be dissassemabled . Well I , is not going to go much further on this thread with this idea , because it should be easy to see that the process is much harder than is sounds, but with enough time ,it could be had if not already on somebodies shelf. Probably is, because another thread indicates a aftermarket ECU that you can program , for 1000 to 2000 bucks.. there gas my gas savings down the tube. Hybirds running twin fuel system , have been designed to do so , so as there are some major differences in the motors of a dual burning system. One of the problems of running hydrogen, in a gas burner engine, is the materials that was used to construct the engine. The coating and remilling of the pistons and valves was to mainly retard embrillelment, As TY ROBINSON indicated , he has been using browns gas for years,, well almost , his converstions run multable fuels , so as the motor isn't 24/7 the same all of the time. Embrilltlement, as I agree with TY , is insignificant in engines which use multable fuels or browns gas with a smaller amount of petro. Not going to go much further here at the moment , just old news being rehashed on my part. Conclusions are , for me, is , it is better to run a gas burning engine with some gas, just minimise the amount. Also an outboard pic controller or basic stamp, configered, is inexpensive in comparison to any other solution I've seen, IE programable pic boards cost around $48.00 or so. You wouldn't need the rom code of the ECU for this, just a table of data to build the stack registers ,for the best part would probably be a device that could generally be used on any car as you would be looking at sampling data from all of the sensors , temp etc and the pic or basic stamp would send as a default, the information that the ecu WOULD LOOK FOR IN A OPITMIM BURN SCENIARO! By being able to program the pic or stamp, you should be able to customize the unit for best perfermance. The collection of data needed here is sensor readings as an input variable . based on a curve that represents a huge range of operating conditions versus the output of the ECU unit . (I/O). From there, a program can be written for the pics or basic stamp. GOTTA RUN FOR NOW MIKE
11-12-2008 11:04 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)