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Re: Your Browns Gas Article
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jessiejames Offline
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Post: #1
Re: Your Brown\'s Gas Article
that is a very good and simple explanation of the matter.So then with 12 volts you can provide electrolis in a water solution with baking soda that will create the Brown gas that is then in-turn piped into the carburator of a car. As hydrogen is flamable it goes in to the carburator mixed with the air and creats more burn and there for more power for less Gas.

correct?
07-12-2007 03:15 PM
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mike Offline
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Post: #2
Re: Your Brown's Gas Article
jessiejames Wrote:that is a very good and simple explanation of the matter.So then with 12 volts you can provide electrolysis in a water solution with baking soda that will create the Brown gas that is then in-turn piped into the carburetor of a car. As hydrogen is flammable it goes in to the carburetor mixed with the air and creates more burn and there for more power for less Gas.

correct?

Close, but not quite. The power to create the Brown's gas (or hydroxy as it's sometimes called), has to come from somewhere. It comes from the car's engine, which has to work a little harder to turn the alternator to draw the current required to produce the hydroxy. When the hydroxy is re-introduced into the system and burned it gives back some of this energy. But it doesn't give it all back, as that would require 100% efficiency in all the energy conversions required, which are: engine to electrical, electrical to gas, gas to engine again. Each of those conversions loses a little bit of energy, giving a net loss.

The reason the system works to improve fuel consumption is because the hydrogen in the hydroxy catalyzes the fuel and this catalytic effect is where the increase comes from. A very small percentage of the gas' energy is actually converted to mechanical energy, and even a small improvement in the percentage yields large results in overall fuel efficiency.

It's at this point that I should differentiate between hydroxy, and Brown's gas. The Brown's gas is the superior catalyst, as you have a higher percentage of free H+ ions than a gas made up of H2 and O2.

Savvy? Smile

Mike

PS: Keep an eye on the documents page at http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com for more info

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07-12-2007 06:55 PM
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jessiejames Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Brown's Gas
fair enought, so then its not that the gas produced burnes but that it catilizes the gasoline so that it burns better,yes? . Is the gas that the unit produces flamable it it's self? or not at all?
07-23-2007 07:54 PM
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mike Offline
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RE: Brown's Gas
jessiejames Wrote:fair enought, so then its not that the gas produced burnes but that it catilizes the gasoline so that it burns better,yes? . Is the gas that the unit produces flamable it it's self? or not at all?

Absolutely! They launch rockets with H2 and O2. And Brown's gas can put out about 2.5 times the energy of an equivalent amount of these gasses. See the first post in this thread for an explanation of why.

But you don't get a fuel efficiency increase by burning the gas alone. The problem is that there are 3 energy conversions involved, and in each conversion you lose some energy. There's no such thing as 100% efficient energy conversion. The conversions are:
  1. Mechanical to electrical (alternator)
  2. Electrical to gas (electrolyzer)
  3. Gas to mechanical (burning the Brown's gas)

By the time you get through 3 conversions, you will lose quite a bit of energy. This would cause a considerable decrease in fuel efficiency if that was all there was to the equation. So while the Brown's gas is adding energy to the combustion, it's not adding as much as was expended to create it.

However, our cars are only using about 20% or less of the fuel energy available in the petroleum they burn. If we raise this 1% due to the catalytic effect of the Brown's gas, we'll already have recovered the losses we incurred creating the gas. Since a good Brown's gas system can increase fuel burning efficiency by 10% or more, you now have a real, tangible increase in fuel efficiency.

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07-24-2007 01:49 PM
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jessiejames Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Brown's Gas
thank that makes it very clear

Greg
07-24-2007 04:58 PM
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01olds Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Re: Your Browns Gas Article
hi reguarding the browns gas subject: some of my experinses may differ from your setup i have a 15 plate stainless 3 inch by 6 inch its in almost a gallon size clear container**by using a device P C M to greatly reduce the amps down to about 4 amps at 12 volts; oh well it puts lots of gas....and i use just plain baking soda like maybe half of a pinch....so any way the alternatior is in no kind of strain....never mean to be disagreable ok....
(This post was last modified: 11-07-2007 01:42 PM by 01olds.)
11-07-2007 01:23 PM
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jerry joseph paul oliver Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Re: Your Browns Gas Article
MY SYSTEM IS PURE STAINLESS .I EXPECT TO TO RUN ON HYDROGEN WITHOUT USING GAS ALLTHE TIME to install the lp impco unit what do i do with the oxygen sensor .on the air filter passage to the intake i have not ordered the efie yet. maybe tonight
11-14-2007 07:38 PM
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01olds Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Re: Your Browns Gas Article
HI ...I THINK THE CENSOR IN THE AIR INTAKE JUST SOME TYPE OF COLD & HOT AIR DETECTOR.... NOT REALLY SURE.. YOU MIGHT CHECK AROUND HERE OR LOOK AT YOUR CAR MANUAL .WORKING AROUND ** THE 02 CENSORS. AS I UNDERSTAND THEY CONTROL THE FUEL MIX HOPEHULLY MUCH LEANER I HAVE THE EFIE DUAL DELUXE ..ITS A BETTER DEAL THAN TWO ONES AT EAGLE RESEARCH I AM SURE AFTER DOING ALL THE WORK AROUNDS THE ENGINE WILL RUN JUST FINE.. GOOD LUCK...
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2007 01:59 PM by 01olds.)
11-15-2007 04:26 AM
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tsdh10 Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Re: Your Browns Gas Article
I'm new to the blog here so be patient. I have built a 10 plate, wall plate gen. but have not yet recived my efie. I see talk of wrapping your O2 sensor in foil. Do you just unsrew it wrap the end in foil and screw it back in or do you need to make a pin hole in the foil? Where on a 98 Chevy Silverado with a 5.7 would I find the O2's? It looks like only 1 before and 1 after the cat. conv. Also, from what I read here I want to use HaOH as a catalyst instead of just water. Is that right? at 1/2 t to a gallon? Have not yet received my amp meter but I have not yet blown the 30 amp fuse.I have a cooling/bubbler tank config. to lower heat and amps. will report back when I get the rest of the equip. installed. MUCH THANKS -tsdh10
07-20-2008 08:12 AM
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bylota Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Brown's Gas
mike Wrote:
jessiejames Wrote:fair enought, so then its not that the gas produced burnes but that it catilizes the gasoline so that it burns better,yes? . Is the gas that the unit produces flamable it it's self? or not at all?

Absolutely! They launch rockets with H2 and O2. And Brown's gas can put out about 2.5 times the energy of an equivalent amount of these gasses. See the first post in this thread for an explanation of why.

But you don't get a fuel efficiency increase by burning the gas alone. The problem is that there are 3 energy conversions involved, and in each conversion you lose some energy. There's no such thing as 100% efficient energy conversion. The conversions are:
  1. Mechanical to electrical (alternator)
  2. Electrical to gas (electrolyzer)
  3. Gas to mechanical (burning the Brown's gas)

By the time you get through 3 conversions, you will lose quite a bit of energy. This would cause a considerable decrease in fuel efficiency if that was all there was to the equation. So while the Brown's gas is adding energy to the combustion, it's not adding as much as was expended to create it.

However, our cars are only using about 20% or less of the fuel energy available in the petroleum they burn. If we raise this 1% due to the catalytic effect of the Brown's gas, we'll already have recovered the losses we incurred creating the gas. Since a good Brown's gas system can increase fuel burning efficiency by 10% or more, you now have a real, tangible increase in fuel efficiency.

Hi Mike,

I am enjoying your explanations of Brown's gas, and hope you don't mind a few more questions about points I am confused on. I was reading here about Brown's gas:

http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgaswaterasfuel.html

It seems to say that Brown's gas is 2 parts H2 and 1 part O2. Do you know if this is correct?

Also, it says that Brown's gas is also known as "brown gas/HHO gas/rhode's gas/hydrogen oxygen/di-hydroxy/hydroxy/green gas/klein gas/aquygen/watergas/knallgas/Knalgas /oxyhydrogen."

But farther down in that same article it says:

"Brown’s Gas is common ducted oxyhydrogen; oxyhydrogen produced in a common ducted electrolyzer. From a practical level, what can visually observed, Brown’s Gas is indistinguishable from oxyhydrogen. The only sensory distinction, that can be observed, is the apparent temperature of the Brown’s Gas flame as compared to that of oxyhydrogen. Considering this obvious and duplicable phenomena, common ducted oxyhydrogen reasonably shares the vast majority of properties with oxyhydrogen, but possesses several distinctions.

Oxyhydrogen is produced in an independently ducted electrolyzer (substantially separate anodes and cathodes). It can also be produced using bottle (tanked) hydrogen and oxygen. Any electrolyzer that is designed according to common ducted parameters will not produce pure oxyhydrogen. The results of common ducted electrolysis is the formation of small quantities of hydrogen and oxygen molecular formations other than solely diatomic structures; oxyhydrogen, according to strict chemical stoichiometry, is a mixture of ONLY diatomic hydrogen and diatomic oxygen. Common ducted oxyhydrogen (Brown’s Gas), on the other hand, contains predominantly H2 and O2,..."

So it seems Brown's gas and oxyhydrogen are not the same. It is still not clear to me the difference between the chemical makeup of Brown's gas and oxyhydrogen. Is oxyhydrogen HHO, and Brown's gas 2H2O2? And what constitutes an efficient brown's gas generator, i.e., what exactly is an inefficient Brown's gas generator producing to create heat, and why?

I hope this is not beyond the scope here. Any place you can send me to help understand this would be appreciated.
(This post was last modified: 07-20-2008 09:24 AM by bylota.)
07-20-2008 08:58 AM
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