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Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
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baracuda Offline
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Post: #1
Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
I found myself deep in thought earlier todayCrazy.....After pushing my heart back down my throat and into my chest, from nearly driving under the trailor of a semi on the Interstate, I wiped the drool from chin, shook my head back and forth like dog trying to get rid of an ear itch. I lit up a smokeCool.....ya know, to get the blood flowing againConfused

I began to recollect my thoughtsHmm
I have a theory....maybe someone has already tried this.....maybe not.
Since the O2 sensor recognizes extra oxygen in the exhaust and the ecu dumps more fuel to compensate. Why not restrict the amount of air entering the manifold through the air filter by an amount equal to the output of the HHO generator ??
Then replace that shortage of air with HHO gasBig Grin

Anybody been down that road before?

You can't skin a fish before you catch it !
07-23-2008 05:43 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
... good day to wear brown pants, 'eh?Gasp

It doesn't take much hho compared to the air the engine uses so in theory, you'd already be there if your filter's been used for 9 months.

It would be easier to just use the hydrogen from a hho generator, then (supposedly) you won't need to tweak anything.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-23-2008 05:52 PM
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baracuda Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
colchiro Wrote:... good day to wear brown pants, 'eh?Gasp

It doesn't take much hho compared to the air the engine uses so in theory, you'd already be there if your filter's been used for 9 months.

It would be easier to just use the hydrogen from a hho generator, then (supposedly) you won't need to tweak anything.

YEAH!!! I'm glad I didn't eat that cabbage last nightShocked.....Shweew !

I was thinking about the old air filter also. But I believe it's a little deeper than just flow or volume of air. I think it's actually the weight of the air. I believe the mass air flow sensor measures the mass of the air going through the intake. We measure HHO in litres per minute as a volumetric measurement. I don't think it's the same.

It would be nice to know what the mass of HHO is.

Maybe, if you hook the output hose to the throttle body before the MAF then check the OBDII scanner and see what the difference isBig Grin

But then again I think temperature would affect it's mass also. I don't know...this approach maybe a little more complicated than I first thought.


BTW seperating the oxy and adding only hydrogen might be a plausible approach too.

You can't skin a fish before you catch it !
07-23-2008 06:36 PM
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stevekos7 Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
baracuda Wrote:
colchiro Wrote:... good day to wear brown pants, 'eh?Gasp

It doesn't take much hho compared to the air the engine uses so in theory, you'd already be there if your filter's been used for 9 months.

It would be easier to just use the hydrogen from a hho generator, then (supposedly) you won't need to tweak anything.

YEAH!!! I'm glad I didn't eat that cabbage last nightShocked.....Shweew !

I was thinking about the old air filter also. But I believe it's a little deeper than just flow or volume of air. I think it's actually the weight of the air. I believe the mass air flow sensor measures the mass of the air going through the intake. We measure HHO in litres per minute as a volumetric measurement. I don't think it's the same.

It would be nice to know what the mass of HHO is.

Maybe, if you hook the output hose to the throttle body before the MAF then check the OBDII scanner and see what the difference isBig Grin

But then again I think temperature would affect it's mass also. I don't know...this approach maybe a little more complicated than I first thought.


BTW seperating the oxy and adding only hydrogen might be a plausible approach too.

Like colchiro said, the volume of HHO going in compared to the overall airflow is very small, and trying to tweak the airflow may give you more problems than it's worth.

Can you input the HHO after the MAF? That would then get that problem out of the way. You would have to have a huge HHO production to interfere with the MAF unless your cell is one that has an air hose that bubbles air into the cell under vacuum. Then you may have difficulties if you place the input hose after the MAF.

Separating the H2 will be a real challenge. You would have to have a cell that separates the anode from the cathode by enough space to be able to funnel the H2 through a separate tube and vent the O2 to the atmosphere. It could be done, but then you would have to compensate for the loss of the O2 somehow. Maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. You would be in real research territory then.

I'm so glad that my vehicle is an OBDI. Less to worry about. I think with modern vehicles the electronics and computer challenges are much greater, and make tweaking the HHO system that much harder.
07-23-2008 06:59 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
Hydrodine is experimenting with just H2. Check his posts. Supposedly no EFIE or leaning is needed then.

Actually pretty easy to separate them. Can be done with an electromagnet (or maybe strong fixed magnets) or a fine mesh between the plates or with the plates spaced more than the usual 1/8 inch.

Most electrolysis is done with the gases separated. HHO users are the only ones who don't usually do that.

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-23-2008 07:55 PM
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hoozadoctor Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
Sorry Guys but your at the wrong end. It's not what goes in it's what is coming out that causes the problem.in order to get more mileage out of a given amount of fuel is really very simple in theory. All you have to do is.
1. Burn more of the available fuel instead of letting it go out the exhaust pipe.
2. Get more horsepower per given quantity of fuel, supposedly that should happen by burning more of the fuel.
3. Run a leaner mixture without burning valves etc.

Now in order to do this we need to lie to the computer, or throw it away and go manual. No matter what amount of air or oxygen is measured by the MAF the simple fact is if we burn more of the available fuel on each stroke then we have MORE oxygen in the exhaust. More oxygen equals lower voltage produce by the oxygen sensor. Low voltage signal send to ECU tells it to richen the fuel mixture.

Another point we have to remeber is that the ECU is only listening to the oxygen sensor in closed loop mode. For average around town driving the car doesn't get much time in closed loop mode. It only closed into closed loop mode when we are cruising. the moment we push the excellorastor or the moment we start applying the brake it goes to open loop.

Doc
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2008 03:14 AM by hoozadoctor.)
07-24-2008 03:11 AM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
hoozadoctor Wrote:For average around town driving the car doesn't get much time in closed loop mode. It only closed into closed loop mode when we are cruising. the moment we push the excellorastor or the moment we start applying the brake it goes to open loop.

Doc

Maybe on older cars, but not on anything in the last few years. My Toyota is in open loop about 2 seconds when first started and when accelerating. O/W always closed loop. You must drive like a madman to see open loop in town.Gasp

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-24-2008 04:12 AM
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Atfab Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
colchiro Wrote:[quote=hoozadoctor]For average around town driving the car doesn't get much time in closed loop mode. It only closed into closed loop mode when we are cruising. the moment we push the excellorastor or the moment we start applying the brake it goes to open loop.

Doc

I don't know about that. My truck needs at least 80% throttle to go open loop most of the time. This seems to be about right from my study. Do you have some heavily modified sensors in there?

Atfab
99 S-10 Pickup 2.2L auto, Std cab, Short bed, Alum cap
Stock, Ave. 25.5 MPH
07-24-2008 01:46 PM
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Terry_Dodson Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
colchiro Wrote:Actually pretty easy to separate them. Can be done with an electromagnet (or maybe strong fixed magnets) or a fine mesh between the plates or with the plates spaced more than the usual 1/8 inch.

How does seperating it with magnets work? Are you saying if you have some of the super magnets on one side of your bubbler it could pull all of the oxygen to one side to let it vent if the bubbler is setup it a wall extending into the water, seperating the hydrogen and oxygen side?
......02...........HH
....-[]---------[]-
M |.......|....... |
M |_W__|_____|
M |.......|........|
M |.......|........|
M |.......|........|
...|.......|........|.....
------------------------ input

02 = Oxygen
HH = Hydrogen
W = Water
M = Magnets
. = cause it would not see the spaces correctly
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2008 02:34 PM by Terry_Dodson.)
07-24-2008 02:28 PM
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colchiro Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Restricted air flow vs. O2 manipulation ??
Terry_Dodson Wrote:How does seperating it with magnets work? Are you saying if you have some of the super magnets on one side of your bubbler it could pull all of the oxygen to one side to let it vent if the bubbler is setup it a wall extending into the water, seperating the hydrogen and oxygen side?
Code:
.          02           HH
         -[]---------[]-
     M  |.......|....... |
     M  |_W__|_____|
     M  |.......|........|
     M  |.......|........|
     M  |.......|........|
         |.......|........|.....
         ------------------   input

02 = Oxygen
HH = Hydrogen
W = Water
M = Magnets
. = cause it would not see the spaces correctly

I saw it somewhere the other day. Here's one topic.

Code view works better for displaying ASCII art like this. (Click the # button.)

Rick

Links: Documents / Tuning for Mileage | Toyota Sensors | Autoshop Sensor Tutorials
07-24-2008 02:36 PM
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