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Some information from SmartScareCrow
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cjpeaceful Offline
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Post: #1
Some information from SmartScareCrow
Below is part of a conversation I had recently with SmartScareCrow. Some interesting points came up during our conversation I thought would be useful to some and possibly confirm some thoughts by others.

For those of you who do not know SmartScareCrow, he's been working in the alternative energy field, specifically Brown's Gas, for many many years. He is also one of the founding officers for EBN - Energy Builders Network.

This particular response is based on a question I had about generator size and HHO limitations. Here's what he said...

Quote:You will only make as much gas as you are willing to provide the power to make … if 12v at 20a is the power you are willing to provide, that is the limit of the gas you can make … bigger/smaller don’t matter … power makes gas … bigger device can handle more power … there is no advantage to making a bigger device unless you are prepared to provide it with more power to take advantage of the additional surface area …


As a rule, plan on .25 watts per square inch of active surface area to keep the device from overheating … so if you got something like my 101 plate 8”x8” setup, you got about 11500 sq in of active surface area … 11500*.25 = 2875 watts … 2875w/12v=240a … so if I want to get max output from my device at 12v, I would hit it with 240 amps … but I choose to use 150v at 20a instead because it is more convenient … but its roughly the same watts, so its roughly the same amount of gas …


An entry level EBN 21 plate 6”x6” dry cell kit is quite capable of getting as much gas output out of 12v at 20a as is currently possible with any real technology I am aware of … but the surface area of that device can’t really handle more than about 30a so if you wanted something able to handle more power, you would then need to think bigger …


The best you are going to do is 5 milliliters of gas per minute for every watt you are prepared to provide … period … those who are claiming more than this are measuring hot gas and/or steam, not real production volumes … if I run my device hot, I can easily fake numbers in the 11-12mmw range but its smoke and mirrors not real production … to be real, the gas has to be at room temperature … I bubble mine through ice water so I get an accurate read … not much point in trying to kid myself into thinking I can make more gas than what is for real … the process we use to produce the gas has a limit of about 5mmw for pure cool clean HHO … so you size your device and provide enough power to make whatever volume you need based on that …

Remember, take everything you hear with a grain of salt. Don't jump to conclusions.
12-04-2008 07:00 AM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
He's just verified what I discovered in our experiments with the Monster Cells. Even Hydrotinkerer's 10x8 7 plate wouldn't do more than my little guy at the same amps.
So I for one entirely agree with him.
12-04-2008 07:14 AM
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MadScientist Offline
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RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
Good info, thanks.
12-04-2008 07:58 AM
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255KCamry Offline
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RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
MadScientist Wrote:Good info, thanks.

Excellent info - that confirms what I've been thinking of...size doesn't really matter it's the power going to the reactor that does.

I think we can improve our city mileage by adding gobs of HHO in short bursts only on acceleration - so the (super)cell is running a fraction of the time and does nothing at idle - which would certainly allow for cooling periods.

More to come when I get further...
12-04-2008 08:47 PM
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Gary Offline
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RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
Quote:size doesn't really matter it's the power going to the reactor that does.
...now where have I heard that before?...
12-04-2008 08:56 PM
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AlexR Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
Quote:
those who are claiming more than this are measuring hot gas and/or steam, not real production volumes … if I run my device hot, I can easily fake numbers in the 11-12mmw range but its smoke and mirrors not real production … to be real, the gas has to be at room temperature … I bubble mine through ice water so I get an accurate read…



I like the bubbling gas through ice water idea. Sounds like a good way to make an apples to apples comparison between different electrolyzers.

I've said it before also - I think a percentage of gas production from the big parallel plate designs is steam and not BG.

That being said BG does contain a small amount of water vapor. That is just the characteristic of the gas. My concern that the large parallel plate designs make quite a bit more steam than BG normally contains and much of the flow rates reflect this.

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
12-05-2008 05:43 AM
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cmac0351 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
255KCamry Wrote:...size doesn't really matter it's the power going to the reactor that does.

That's what she said.
12-05-2008 06:21 AM
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255KCamry Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
cmac0351 Wrote:
255KCamry Wrote:...size doesn't really matter it's the power going to the reactor that does.

That's what she said.

Figured I'd get some raised eyebrows out of that comment!

ALEX - There will always be water vapor present when measuring HHO production - the hotter the solution the more vapor present - that's just nature of any liquid. If you wanted to measure JUST HHO output, you could bubble the gas through some dessicant like sodium silicate or maybe solid sodium hydroxide. These materials are hygroscopic - they love to absorb water.

But realistically, measuring total output of a cell(s) would have to include water vapor since this will be going to the engine unless filtered by some other means (too much maintenance)
12-05-2008 02:23 PM
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Gary Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
I would think that since we're just comparing automotive systems, and not rocketry, the temp range gives us enough insight. We know a brickinnabath at 20 amps is half steam. We know any unit under, say, 90 degrees is pretty low steam.
12-05-2008 04:29 PM
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MadScientist Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Some information from SmartScareCrow
Gary Wrote:We know any unit under, say, 90 degrees is pretty low steam.

I did a small test with distilled water (no electrolyte) to see when it started to steam. With ambient air temp at 70F at 500' above sea level, very light wisps of steam began showing up at 120F. I have heard that heat promotes HHO production (the hotter it is, the busier the electrons). So it would seem that when fine tuning our cells, we want to be just below the steam threshold, say 115F-118F.
12-06-2008 09:01 PM
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