Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Steam Injection
Author Message
livehho Offline
Member
***

Posts: 15
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #21
RE: Steam Injection
Hi. I've been working on different systems to improve efficiency on an internal combustion engine. The test subject is a Toyota truck 22RE. One of the things Im trying now is steam induction. The design is ready but first I need to do some bench testing. The setup will be a copper tubing wrapped around the exhaust pipe closest to the engine. When engine reaches a preset limit of rpms a solenoid valve opens and water flows from a reservoir and fills the copper tubing with water creating steam which then goes to the engine through the air intake. Exhaust temps in my truck are in the 400F - 1000F range depending on rpm. My question is the following:

What is the cheapest method to heat up the copper tubing to 400F+ ??

I tried submerging the copper into a pan, filled it with water and boiled it but temps didn't even get close to 400F. any ideas? thanks for your time
02-01-2010 10:06 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AlexR Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 187
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #22
RE: Steam Injection
(02-01-2010 10:06 AM)livehho Wrote:  Hi. I've been working on different systems to improve efficiency on an internal combustion engine. The test subject is a Toyota truck 22RE. One of the things Im trying now is steam induction. The design is ready but first I need to do some bench testing. The setup will be a copper tubing wrapped around the exhaust pipe closest to the engine. When engine reaches a preset limit of rpms a solenoid valve opens and water flows from a reservoir and fills the copper tubing with water creating steam which then goes to the engine through the air intake. Exhaust temps in my truck are in the 400F - 1000F range depending on rpm. My question is the following:

What is the cheapest method to heat up the copper tubing to 400F+ ??

I tried submerging the copper into a pan, filled it with water and boiled it but temps didn't even get close to 400F. any ideas? thanks for your time



Exhaust heat is an excellent way to heat water for steam injection. Since its waste heat its also free in terms of energy used to heat your water to steam. I'd use stainless tubing and wrap it tight so vibration doesn't rub a hole through your tubing or exhaust pipe. Then wrap that with a material designed to withstand exhaust temperatures. Copper won't last at exhaust temps, especially with any vibration.

Water boils at 100C/212F - that's why it didn't get to 400F.


.

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
02-01-2010 02:28 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
livehho Offline
Member
***

Posts: 15
Joined: Nov 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #23
RE: Steam Injection
(02-01-2010 02:28 PM)AlexR Wrote:  
(02-01-2010 10:06 AM)livehho Wrote:  Hi. I've been working on different systems to improve efficiency on an internal combustion engine. The test subject is a Toyota truck 22RE. One of the things Im trying now is steam induction. The design is ready but first I need to do some bench testing. The setup will be a copper tubing wrapped around the exhaust pipe closest to the engine. When engine reaches a preset limit of rpms a solenoid valve opens and water flows from a reservoir and fills the copper tubing with water creating steam which then goes to the engine through the air intake. Exhaust temps in my truck are in the 400F - 1000F range depending on rpm. My question is the following:

What is the cheapest method to heat up the copper tubing to 400F+ ??

I tried submerging the copper into a pan, filled it with water and boiled it but temps didn't even get close to 400F. any ideas? thanks for your time



Exhaust heat is an excellent way to heat water for steam injection. Since its waste heat its also free in terms of energy used to heat your water to steam. I'd use stainless tubing and wrap it tight so vibration doesn't rub a hole through your tubing or exhaust pipe. Then wrap that with a material designed to withstand exhaust temperatures. Copper won't last at exhaust temps, especially with any vibration.

Water boils at 100C/212F - that's why it didn't get to 400F.


.

By stainless tubing you mean ANY metal that is stainless? aluminum, brass, stainless steel, etc..

Yeah, I've heard copper doesn't withstand vibration very well. Maybe aluminum?

What would you think is the cheapest method to heat up metal tubing to 400F+ ??
02-03-2010 01:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
AlexR Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 187
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #24
RE: Steam Injection
(02-03-2010 01:04 PM)livehho Wrote:  By stainless tubing you mean ANY metal that is stainless? aluminum, brass, stainless steel, etc..

Yeah, I've heard copper doesn't withstand vibration very well. Maybe aluminum?

What would you think is the cheapest method to heat up metal tubing to 400F+ ??

I do mean stainless steel. Aluminum is also soft like copper and would give you problems.


.

Alex

Cool Flame, LLC
http://www.cool-flame.com
02-03-2010 06:22 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Gary Offline
Member
***

Posts: 1,542
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 4
Post: #25
RE: Steam Injection
Your RPM limit should be low, because you'll want water for accelleration, not cruising only. I would think just above idle a ways would do.
02-06-2010 06:47 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Aat Yuli Offline
Member
***

Posts: 24
Joined: Jan 2010
Reputation: 0
Post: #26
RE: Steam Injection
(02-06-2010 06:47 AM)Gary Wrote:  Your RPM limit should be low, because you'll want water for accelleration, not cruising only. I would think just above idle a ways would do.

Better if your water spray at cold temperature ( not heated or steam phase)
for the gasoline engine this system famous in Indonesia,
Because water will expand the volume in the combustion so it will create power to the engine,

Heating up air flow at exhaustm manifold like our hydrocarbon cracking system,
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2010 10:52 PM by Aat Yuli.)
02-19-2010 10:40 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Roland Jacques Offline
Member
***

Posts: 112
Joined: Aug 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #27
RE: Steam Injection
My opinion here.
Steam should works better because the droplets are as small as possible and expand faster because of their small size. The faster the water reacts the more effectively it can help performance in a ICE.

Depending on where and how you introduce the Steam, will determine its temp by the time it reaches the combustion chamber. Steam in the intake manifold will QUICKLY cool down to close to intake air temp. So while we say steam we are really talking water vapor. (stem is just the best delivery method.
Also by the time it gets to TDC of the compression stroke, the vapor will be at a pressure of 100 psi plus, so that also raises the temp at which water turns to steam. (Oh boy, I just found a steam table, it takes 337 F degrees for water to turn to steam at 100 PSIG. s Here is the link http://www.boilerroomservices.com/Facts/SteamTables.pdf


Also i wonder how water vapor expands at all different temps? Is it a linear expansion at all temps above boiling? or is boiling/steam point the main useful expansion point. i guess i should read this steam table.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Just thinking out loud here.

It seems to me that if we want to use Water vapor as our main expansion medium instead of nitrogen (the normal expansion medium) the closer to the flash/steam point we would what it for faster reaction.

So to get the that vapor to 300 degrees or so. the small amount of steam we,d be adding should be maybe 1000 degrees, because it would be diluted by coll intake air. if it was a 10 to 1 ratio of 80 degree intake air with 1000 degree steam. The 1000 degree steam would only add 100 degrees to the intake air temp (hypothetically)
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2010 08:08 PM by Roland Jacques.)
05-25-2010 07:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
staugur Offline
Member
***

Posts: 49
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #28
RE: Steam Injection
Guy's I think you are going down the wrong track here. The whole principle of water injection is to cool the charge, therefore allowing the piston to draw in a greater volume of air.That's why your performance is so much better on cold,foggy mornings.A secondary effect is when the mixture ignites the water turns to steam,expands and provides much higher cylinder pressures.It's old tech on fighter aircraft in WW2.Rolls Royce merlins could gain 50% HP for short periods.The only reason they added methanol was to stop the water tank from freezing.It's most effective on forced induction engines where the charge is already heated by being compressed. Once water has turned to steam it can't expand any more and you are heating the charge which is exactly opposite to what you want.If you want to wrap the exhaust pipe and heat something up,heat the fuel.It will atomise better.Don't overdo it to the point where you get vapour lock.
05-26-2010 08:59 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
thomasbala Offline
Senior Member
****

Posts: 623
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation: 4
Post: #29
RE: Steam Injection
(05-26-2010 08:59 AM)staugur Wrote:  Guy's I think you are going down the wrong track here. The whole principle of water injection is to cool the charge, therefore allowing the piston to draw in a greater volume of air.That's why your performance is so much better on cold,foggy mornings.A secondary effect is when the mixture ignites the water turns to steam,expands and provides much higher cylinder pressures.It's old tech on fighter aircraft in WW2.Rolls Royce merlins could gain 50% HP for short periods.The only reason they added methanol was to stop the water tank from freezing.It's most effective on forced induction engines where the charge is already heated by being compressed. Once water has turned to steam it can't expand any more and you are heating the charge which is exactly opposite to what you want.If you want to wrap the exhaust pipe and heat something up,heat the fuel.It will atomise better.Don't overdo it to the point where you get vapour lock.
Staugur is right. I remember in the 60's one of the easier methods of removing excess carbon from combustion chambers was to run a carburetor vacuum line into the passenger compartment. The driver would travel at a steady 50-55 mph while the passenger would dip the vacuum line into a can of water for a few seconds. Without giving the car more gas it would speed up about 7 to 10 mph. On one run the guy with the vacuum line left it in the water too long and the engine quit. Wouldn't restart either; had a different sound turning over than usual. The timing chain broke, apparently too much pressure from the steam. Volvo had an X car with a 5th cylinder that would get an injection of water, no gas/air mix, to try to increase mpg. Don't think it ever made it to market.
05-26-2010 04:01 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
staugur Offline
Member
***

Posts: 49
Joined: Jul 2008
Reputation: 0
Post: #30
RE: Steam Injection
(05-26-2010 04:01 PM)thomasbala Wrote:  
(05-26-2010 08:59 AM)staugur Wrote:  Guy's I think you are going down the wrong track here. The whole principle of water injection is to cool the charge, therefore allowing the piston to draw in a greater volume of air.That's why your performance is so much better on cold,foggy mornings.A secondary effect is when the mixture ignites the water turns to steam,expands and provides much higher cylinder pressures.It's old tech on fighter aircraft in WW2.Rolls Royce merlins could gain 50% HP for short periods.The only reason they added methanol was to stop the water tank from freezing.It's most effective on forced induction engines where the charge is already heated by being compressed. Once water has turned to steam it can't expand any more and you are heating the charge which is exactly opposite to what you want.If you want to wrap the exhaust pipe and heat something up,heat the fuel.It will atomise better.Don't overdo it to the point where you get vapour lock.
Staugur is right. I remember in the 60's one of the easier methods of removing excess carbon from combustion chambers was to run a carburetor vacuum line into the passenger compartment. The driver would travel at a steady 50-55 mph while the passenger would dip the vacuum line into a can of water for a few seconds. Without giving the car more gas it would speed up about 7 to 10 mph. On one run the guy with the vacuum line left it in the water too long and the engine quit. Wouldn't restart either; had a different sound turning over than usual. The timing chain broke, apparently too much pressure from the steam. Volvo had an X car with a 5th cylinder that would get an injection of water, no gas/air mix, to try to increase mpg. Don't think it ever made it to market.

There was a pretty radical British sports car a few years back that had two tanks.One for gas,the other for water.Very high performance but too pricey for the market back then.
05-26-2010 04:20 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)